Why is FMJ Bad For Hunting?

[Marine Cpl]

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, hear me out and think about it.

Any handgun hunter of larger game (not puny deer) who knows what he is doing, hunts with flat pointed hard cast lead bullets. They don't use hollow points because they don't penetrate enough on thicker, larger animals. They take down elk, moose, bear, hogs, ECT.

In Africa from what I've read, many hunters there use solid bullets as well to get more penetration on even larger animals. Lions, wildebeest, hippos, ECT. I've read that many shy away from HP rifle ammunition because they've lost animals due to shallow penetration.

In both cases, the animals go down with the solid bullets.

Now for some reason, here in America, solid bullets are bad in rifles. You hear things like it's inhumane, it doesn't make a quick death, the wound is too small, you don't get the so called "energy dump," ECT. Yet with a handgun, it's acceptable and the only way to really hunt these larger, thicker animals.

If it's okay with a handgun, why not with a rifle like they do in Africa on even larger game? I mean the wound is sufficient with a handgun yet somehow when it goes to a rifle that produces an even bigger wound with a solid compared to a handgun, it is no longer ideal on the same animal that was killed with a solid handgun bullet.

I'm starting to believe that all hollow points are seriously overrated. Yes they provide bigger wounds but depending on the size of the animal, they may not reach vitals. And when they do reach vitals on smaller animals a solid bullet would do the same job. On a non vital shot, the hole would be bigger but you'd still have to track it regardless.

Here are some FMJ wounds I've found searching the net.

7.62x39 FMJ

55 gr FMJ

7.62x39

I don't know the caliber but I got the pic from a monolithic bullet website.

.458 Lott caliber 500 gr. Barnes monolithic solid

 

[7.62x51FMJ]

That's why 7.62x51 FMJ is best for Home Defense.

 

[Prominus]

You can hunt any animal in the world with a 22lr. but why? Of course a fmj bullet will kill an animal but if you are not worried about having to go through tough hide why not use a hollow point and have a better chance of success?

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's why 7.62x51 FMJ is best for Home Defense.

Didn't you shoot yourself with one in bootcamp?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You can hunt any animal in the world with a 22lr. but why? Of course a fmj bullet will kill an animal but if you are not worried about having to go through tough hide why not use a hollow point and have a better chance of success?

To get reliable penetration is my theory.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Hard cast flat point work better than FMJ.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Hard cast flat point work better than FMJ.

They stay straight. They don't really make them for rifles too much though.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

It's apples to oranges to compare pistols and rifles in the first place but... a solid in a rifle on an elephant would be like a big bore pistol on say a deer. That's why solids out of a rifle in Africa are fine. Find something that big in NA and then you would have a point. And why do you put energy transfer in quotes? It's a real thing and does make a difference. I'm sure you would rather be hit in the face by a bb thrown at your face by an MLB pitcher than a hardball at the same speed. The energy is stopped and transferred to your face. Same thing happens with bullets while in an animals body. This should answer why hollow points in a rifle.

 

[Airborneguy]

You make a great argument. I don't hunt with hollow points, but I have been loading Hornady A-Max with the ballistic polymer tip. Some say, like you did above, that these are not hunting bullets. I've read that after penetration they fragment due to the exposure of the lead core once the polymer tip disintegrates. In April I took my pig with one in 7.62x39 and it dropped like a rock, bleeding profusely. I put a 9mm behind the ear to finish it quickly, but make no mistake, it wasn't getting up. Unfortunately I did not recover the bullet from the carcass, but it did not exit and the damage was extensive.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's apples to oranges to compare pistols and rifles in the first place but... a solid in a rifle on an elephant would be like a big bore pistol on say a deer. That's why solids out of a rifle in Africa are fine. Find something that big in NA and then you would have a point. And why do you put energy transfer in quotes. It's a real thing and does make a difference. I'm sure you would rather be hit in the face by a bb thrown at your face by an MLB pitcher than a hardball. The energy is stopped and transferred to your face. Same thing happens with bullets while in an animals body. This should answer why hollow points in a rifle.

I see your point. I don't however with "energy dump." I've read a lot of material regarding the matter. Most point it to being a myth. Even the FBI says so in their manuals.

 

[Airborneguy]

Hard cast flat point work better than FMJ.

I'm trying to work up an accurate load now with RNFP lead bullets for my new MArline .30-30. If so, my father will be hunting with those this year.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You make a great argument. I don't hunt with hollow points, but I have been loading Hornady A-Max with the ballistic polymer tip. Some say, like you did above, that these are not hunting bullets. I've read that after penetration they fragment due to the exposure of the lead core once the polymer tip disintegrates. In April I took my pig with one in 7.62x39 and it dropped like a rock, bleeding profusely. I put a 9mm behind the ear to finish it quickly, but make no mistake, it wasn't getting up. Unfortunately I did not recover the bullet from the carcass, but it did not exit and the damage was extensive.

I saw a lot of gruesome wounds with those ballistic tips in my research for animal wound in the last hour.

Here's one of many.

 

[Airborneguy]

Wait, I just realized something. My 7.62 Hornady's are SST's, which was made for hunting larger game. It's the .308 bullets I've been loading in .30-06 which are A-Max.

 

[ECU Pirates]

They stay straight. They don't really make them for rifles too much though.

They also cut better and wider. More of a plow than an ice pick. People used controlled expansion on animals as big as cape buffalo. The dangerous game solids are essentially hard cast flat points for rifle velocities. They are just a bit more round and not totally flat.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I'm trying to work up an accurate load now with RNFP lead bullets for my new MArline .30-30. If so, my father will be hunting with those this year.

Are they hard cast? If not the leading will be terrible. What weight?

 

[DoD1776]

You can hunt any animal in the world with a 22lr. but why? Of course a fmj bullet will kill an animal but if you are not worried about having to go through tough hide why not use a hollow point and have a better chance of success?

I agree, I don't see why people would hunt with FMJ when there's hollow point (I understand for elephants and big game on why someone would use a FMJ).

 

[Airborneguy]

Are they hard cast? If not the leading will be terrible. What weight?

Yes they are. They are 165’s. I took them to the range the other day and wasn’t pleased. I’ll have to work it some more.

 

[Acer-m14]

i think the bigger problem here with our game "deer" with FMJ is passthru .. sure it will drop them but what else did you hit if not paying attention to whats behind the deer ..

 

[Marine Cpl]

i think the bigger problem here with our game "deer" with FMJ is passthru .. sure it will drop them but what else did you hit if not paying attention to whats behind the deer ..

A tree. You aren't supposed to shoot if you are unsure of what's behind your target. A miss from a HP has much more energy than a pass through from a FMJ.

 

[Acer-m14]

A tree. You aren't supposed to shoot if you are unsure of what's behind your target. A miss from a HP has much more energy than a pass through from a FMJ.

thats true ... BUT!!! .. didnt a kid shoot his dad or the other way around last year or something like that .. ??

a miss is a miss with any ammo ..

 

[Bananabandit]

I agree, I don't see why people would hunt with FMJ when there's hollow point (I understand for elephants and big game on why someone would use a FMJ).

Please share your fmj vs hp experience

I am dying to hear it

 

[zzrguy]

I would prefer use jacketed soft point like hornady traditional for a handgun round. I load hornady 500gr DGX for his 45-70 Gov Marlin guide gun for Kodak bear and they work perfectly penitrated and expanded all that while dumping it energy into the bear he shot that bear 3x all the bullets where recovered. Both shoulders blow out and a the final shot blow the spine out.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Barnes xpb copper HP's are great for handgun hunting.

 

[freddy]

I see your point. I don't however with "energy dump." I've read a lot of material regarding the matter. Most point it to being a myth. Even the FBI says so in their manuals.

Can you link to this please?

 

[freddy]

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, hear me out and think about it.

Any handgun hunter of larger game (not puny deer) who knows what he is doing, hunts with flat pointed hard cast lead bullets. They don't use hollow points because they don't penetrate enough on thicker, larger animals. They take down elk, moose, bear, hogs, ECT.

In Africa from what I've read, many hunters there use solid bullets as well to get more penetration on even larger animals. Lions, wildebeest, hippos, ECT. I've read that many shy away from HP rifle ammunition because they've lost animals due to shallow penetration.

In both cases, the animals go down with the solid bullets.

Now for some reason, here in America, solid bullets are bad in rifles. You hear things like it's inhumane, it doesn't make a quick death, the wound is too small, you don't get the so called "energy dump," ECT. Yet with a handgun, it's acceptable and the only way to really hunt these larger, thicker animals.

If it's okay with a handgun, why not with a rifle like they do in Africa on even larger game? I mean the wound is sufficient with a handgun yet somehow when it goes to a rifle that produces an even bigger wound with a solid compared to a handgun, it is no longer ideal on the same animal that was killed with a solid handgun bullet.

I'm starting to believe that all hollow points are seriously overrated. Yes they provide bigger wounds but depending on the size of the animal, they may not reach vitals. And when they do reach vitals on smaller animals a solid bullet would do the same job. On a non vital shot, the hole would be bigger but you'd still have to track it regardless.

Here are some FMJ wounds I've found searching the net.

7.62x39 FMJ

55 gr FMJ

7.62x39

I don't know the caliber but I got the pic from a monolithic bullet website.

.458 Lott caliber 500 gr. Barnes monolithic solid

View attachment 19279

Have you read the hollowpoint data and explanations by DocGKR yet?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Can you link to this please?

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

There was another one that was an actual traing manual but I'm still looking for it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Have you read the hollowpoint data and explanations by DocGKR yet?

no. Link?

 

[freddy]

no. Link?

For example.... Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

[freddy]

And... LE .308 Loads

Also... 5.56 mm Duty Loads

 

[Marine Cpl]

For example.... Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

Not a bad read. I plan for the worst case scenario as he recommends. So Solid bullets for me. HP's are a compromise. I do not want to compromise on penetration. Especially for handgun bullets where expansion is only a millimeter or 2 larger. It's not worth it to me if it compromises penetration like that situation with the extremely fat guy in NJ or if a bullet hits a car door, gets deformed, partially flattens out and then hits a shoulder bone and doesn't penetrate enough to reach vitals because it first hit him partially expanded.

For hunting a deer, I would most certainly have no issues with a HP that still penetrates both sides. For handguns or large game like bear, solids for me.