They are words yes. Not what the Constitution says. I don't need black robs telling me how to read. The second is quite simple.
2nd Circuit Court is alive and well
- Thread starter Zerex
- Start date
spat
.950 JDJ
The proper legal standard is "no conviction, then it didn't happen".
You cannot deprive someone of rights or property without a conviction. That is the core of the right to due process.
spat
.950 JDJ
Unfit is simple.Subjective criteria? You are right. If they codified it, like what psychological medicines have you been prescribed and for what would that satisfy your concerns?
Remember that that a lot of schizophrenics have never been committed but only outpatient. Can a licensing officer place an application on hold to find out what the person was treated for if they found a record of the person being transported to the psych ward? And numerous times?
Some of that would be subjective .
What about a domestic violence case where there is evidence of multiple assaults on the person but no conviction due to various factors. None pointed to actual innocence. A problem with the system. Absolutely.
Here is an example of someone who should not have a gun and depending if he was convicted of drug use, might not be kept from getting a gun by current federal standards. Drug addiction could be a subjective thing as well.
Do you think he should be denied a permit after the state goes to court, where they have the burden to show the person is unfit, with a free defense lawyer BEFORE any guns are taken or a permit denied?
Shoplifter who even DA Alvin Bragg wanted locked up is let go after 122nd arrest — thanks to bail laws
“We cannot accept a system where individuals who shoplift again and again cycle in and out of jail, just to shoplift again,’’ Bragg said.nypost.com
I have no problem with the above if the subjective” unfit” is hard standard to prove . Not much different than involuntary commitment standards .
Convicted of a felony in a court of law.
Adjudicated mentally defective in a court of law.
Due process is not negotiable.
Once you start to let that slip, then things get tyrannical very quickly.
If you don't have the option to present evidence, cross examine witnesses against you, and have the facts decided by an impartial jury of your peers, then you did not get your due process.
99cummins
.308 Win
“Violent” felony. Not just any felony. Everything is a felony now.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
I agree violent or repeated felonies.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
The whole permitting system in NY needs to be shot down. Only state in the US that yoy need permission from the state just to purchase a handgun.Subjective criteria? You are right. If they codified it, like what psychological medicines have you been prescribed and for what would that satisfy your concerns?
Remember that that a lot of schizophrenics have never been committed but only outpatient. Can a licensing officer place an application on hold to find out what the person was treated for if they found a record of the person being transported to the psych ward? And numerous times?
Some of that would be subjective .
What about a domestic violence case where there is evidence of multiple assaults on the person but no conviction due to various factors. None pointed to actual innocence. A problem with the system. Absolutely.
Here is an example of someone who should not have a gun and depending if he was convicted of drug use, might not be kept from getting a gun by current federal standards. Drug addiction could be a subjective thing as well.
Do you think he should be denied a permit after the state goes to court, where they have the burden to show the person is unfit, with a free defense lawyer BEFORE any guns are taken or a permit denied?Shoplifter who even DA Alvin Bragg wanted locked up is let go after 122nd arrest — thanks to bail laws
“We cannot accept a system where individuals who shoplift again and again cycle in and out of jail, just to shoplift again,’’ Bragg said.
I have no problem with the above if the subjective” unfit” is hard standard to prove . Not much different than involuntary commitment standards .
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
That is not correct. People are committed to psych wards without a conviction. Civil forfeiture happens without a conviction. Evidence in a criminal case is seized and deprives the owner of their property all the time .
These are just examples.
Due process isn’t always a trial. It can be a hearing .
A crazy person is not “ convicted” . They could be deemed crazy, then beat the criminal case as a result and then deemed not crazy enough to commit after they take a pill. Do you want that person to have a gun?
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
yep sure do .. there gunna get one some how so might as well just give them one
and leave mine the F alone with your Fkin gun control violence laws ..
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
So you want a confirmed schizophrenic to have a gun?
It doesn’t have to interfere with your rights or anyone else’s if done right. Again, if the licensing officer has to PROVE someone is unfit ( the burden is on them) in court before impartial judge and provide for the person’s defense before a denial is issued, then it’s proper— and it’s due process. A paranoid schizophrenic shouldn’t have a gun.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
does A paranoid schizophrenic have the right to vote ? or did you take that right away too ?
ronstar
.357 mag
Those deemed mentally unfit to possess a firearm do have Due Process and can appeal.
ronstar
.357 mag
Silly to compare voting to possessing a deadly firearm.
ronstar
.357 mag
Current Supreme Court upheld the authority & discretion of States to require a permit in order to own a gun.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
well it looks like voting these days is a lot more dangerous then a firearm ..
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
now if only bad guys will go get there permit first before shooting up the subways or city block .
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Schizophrenics are often those bad guys, with or without a gun. They are the ones pushing people in front of the subway trains or attacking strangers for no reason .
spat
.950 JDJ
Just because it happens a lot, doesn't make it right
Just because it is the official process doesn't make it right either.
You always get hung up on "this is how it works" and never quite get to "this is not how it *should* work".
Think of it like this. For 100 years you needed to show "good cause" to possess a pistol in NY. That was the official legal policy.
It was *never* right. The recent SCOTUS decision doesn't just mean they changed the policy. The decision means that officially it was *never* constitutional, and NY had been illegally violating people's rights for a century.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Yes, we agree. But keeping guns out of certain people’s hands is just smart as being right. The difference in New York’s law was the burden was on the person rather than the state. The “ shall issue “ is where the state has to show cause to deny a permit . Big difference. The burden would get on the state.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
but you all will jam someone up with having a pistol and doing nothing with it at a traffic stop
but because the skitszoid went ballistic .. and neither had a fking permit .. were all are bad guys ..
and you know what .. they shouldn't be out in public then .. if there are .. the they have a right to a GUN ..
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
"Thirty days. Or is it two to three months?
Berlin Township police Chief Leonard Check said at his department, it's the latter when it comes to approving firearms permits and involves multiple organizations coordinating to give the green light. "
"Carol Bowne, 39, who was fatally stabbed outside her Berlin home late Wednesday. Right, Michael Eitel, 45, an ex-boyfriend of Bowne's,"
waiting for permission to get a pistol permit ....
N.J. gun association calls Berlin woman's death an 'absolute outrage'
Berlin Township police Chief Leonard Check said at his department, it's the latter when it comes to approving firearms permits and involves multiple organizations coordinating to give the green light. "
"Carol Bowne, 39, who was fatally stabbed outside her Berlin home late Wednesday. Right, Michael Eitel, 45, an ex-boyfriend of Bowne's,"
waiting for permission to get a pistol permit ....
N.J. gun association calls Berlin woman's death an 'absolute outrage'
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
I have absolutely no qualms about those I arrested for having an illegal gun. They were all actual bad guys. Not just a normal guy who happens to have a gun. So relax. You will never know how many such people were given a break and just cut loose.
SCOTUS has backed the shall issue system.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
2020 .. over a fking magazine ..
buffalonews.com
Army veteran avoids prison but still vows appeal of SAFE Act convictions
An Iraq War combat veteran who served seven years in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division avoided prison time and received a conditional discharge Wednesday for his three felony violations of
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
no such thing ...
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
And that wasn’t me that arrested him.2020 .. over a fking magazine ..
Army veteran avoids prison but still vows appeal of SAFE Act convictions
An Iraq War combat veteran who served seven years in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division avoided prison time and received a conditional discharge Wednesday for his three felony violations of
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
If you are a convicted felon on parole it is
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
and if your a felon on parole he should have his gun Rights ..
spat
.950 JDJ
Real due process doesn't mean appeal.
It means no deprivation of rights without fair trial, ability to cross examine witnesses and present evidence, and a jury of your peers to determine the facts.
Anything less is ripe for abuse.
Look at the old Soviet union. They had doctors on standby to rubber stamp a declaration of "mentally defective" for anyone who expressed doubt in the official narrative, for anything.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Then you would for the state being able to prove cause why someone shouldn’t be allowed to have a firearm with due process then. The argument turns to what is due process and what causes they could deny the ability to carry a firearm.