Things are heating up in the Donbass

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Yes, I can certainly see the argument for breaking up Russia today.

Putin's Ukranian adventure played right into the hands of rhe people who are advocating that.

But, you still can't seem to explain how if "national security" is justification for Russia to invade Ukraine to counter NATO expansion, that NATO moving into Ukraine to counter Russian expansion wouldn't be equally justified.

NATO has been incrementally expanding for decades I think that's the point. Russia wanted to join NATO at one time and they were denied. That would have been genuine world stability. China wouldn't dare step out of line unlike the disaster of a world we have in 2024.

I genuinely feel for the Ukrainian people. I do. I also don't think Russia is so great. Russia isn't some hero but Ukraine is a corrupt puppet and we have forced this war on Russia. We backed them into a corner until we knew they were going to have enough and be forced to act.

Russia isn't as vilionous as they are being portrayed. The US has fought wars for lesser reasons.

I'm just trying to be objective and not biased.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

All I need to know is look at the people in Washington, hollywood and Europe cheering the loudest for Ukraine.

 

[Mosinitis]

There were several reasons for Russian millitary action in Ukraine. NATO expansion, Ukraine's refusal to abide by Minsk agreements and spike in shelling of Donbas that preceded Ukraine's plan to retake it. This was later confirmed by Angela Merkel. Minsk agreements were only signed to buy time and build up Ukrainian military.
Those were the 3 main reasons, each of these was enough to justify military action. All 3 made it unavoidable.

Russia will never accept anti-Russian state on its historic territory populated by their owm ethnos. Tough shit for Washington and for NATO.

 

[holdover]

So, if NATO moving in *invited* would have been a violation, WTF do you call Russia rolling tanks across the border ?

And why do you relegate Ukraine to a setting in all this ? They are a sovereign nation with just as many rights as Russia has.

Would it be reasonable for Ukraine to demand Russia stop cozying up to China because it constitutes a threat to Ukraine ?

Dude, thats the way it was set up. I didnt make the rules. by invitation or no invitation they had entered a neutral country and posed a threat . It is what it is . They are a sovereign nation that broke its neutrality and are paying the price for it .Of course they are a sovereign nation, but their nation happens to be on the strategic border land between east and west. That sovereign nation broke a neutrality agreement with the understanding that Russia would go to war with them . They were inviting foreign army's to build bases on the Russian border

what did you expect the Russians to do? Except it? After screaming for 30 years they would go to war if it did? Except foreign army's on thier border because it would be mean to attack them? A breach of etiquette?? did you expect them to sue? to take them to court while thier enemys take over thier naval bases unopposed ?

Your Vlad Putin. how do you play it out? Whats your move? I want to hear what you realistically think the Russians should have done .

 

[spat]

NATO has been incrementally expanding for decades I think that's the point. Russia wanted to join NATO at one time and they were denied. That would have been genuine world stability. China wouldn't dare step out of line unlike the disaster of a world we have in 2024.

I genuinely feel for the Ukrainian people. I do. I also don't think Russia is so great. Russia isn't some hero but Ukraine is a corrupt puppet and we have forced this war on Russia. We backed them into a corner until we knew they were going to have enough and be forced to act.

Russia isn't as vilionous as they are being portrayed. The US has fought wars for lesser reasons.

I'm just trying to be objective and not biased.

Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.

Just like they did Finland and Sweden.

You guys say Russia was justified because Ukraine was posing a threat.

Well, what about the threat that Russia was posing to Ukraine ? That sure seems like a hell of a lot more real.

I don't get how you look at this from Russia's perspective and think it's all reasonable to roll tanks into your neighbor, but you can't look at it from Ukraine’s perspective and think seeking allies is reasonable.

Seeking to join an alliance is sure as hell less aggressive than actually invading a country. And not the first country at that.

It's like you think Russia has some preferred position here that makes things reasonable for them that weren't for others.

Would Ukraine have been justified in invading Russia (if they had the ability) because they found their relationship with China threatening?

What makes Russia special that they get the excuse?

Would Russia have been justified in invading Finland when they were first considering joining NATO ?

 

[spat]

There were several reasons for Russian millitary action in Ukraine. NATO expansion, Ukraine's refusal to abide by Minsk agreements and spike in shelling of Donbas that preceded Ukraine's plan to retake it. This was later confirmed by Angela Merkel. Minsk agreements were only signed to buy time and build up Ukrainian military.
Those were the 3 main reasons, each of these was enough to justify military action. All 3 made it unavoidable.

Russia will never accept anti-Russian state on its historic territory populated by their owm ethnos. Tough shit for Washington and for NATO.

Going to be real tough shit for Russia.

They're talking themselves into the Iraq treatment.

They are no longer a superpower, they don't have the weight to throw around like that anymore.

 

[spat]

Dude, thats the way it was set up. I didnt make the rules. by invitation or no invitation they had entered a neutral country and posed a threat . It is what it is . They are a sovereign nation that broke its neutrality and are paying the price for it .Of course they are a sovereign nation, but their nation happens to be on the strategic border land between east and west. That sovereign nation broke a neutrality agreement with the understanding that Russia would go to war with them . They were inviting foreign army's to build bases on the Russian border

what did you expect the Russians to do? Except it? After screaming for 30 years they would go to war if it did? Except foreign army's on thier border because it would be mean to attack them? A breach of etiquette?? did you expect them to sue? to take them to court while thier enemys take over thier naval bases unopposed ?

Your Vlad Putin. how do you play it out? Whats your move? I want to hear what you realistically think the Russians should have done .

Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.

So what. It's not like you need a formal treaty to say "no, you can't invade your neighbors".

I guess we don't have an agreement with Russia that says we can't sink all their subs and bomb all their ICBMs, so we can just go ahead, right ?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.

Just like they did Finland and Sweden.

You guys say Russia was justified because Ukraine was posing a threat.

Well, what about the threat that Russia was posing to Ukraine ? That sure seems like a hell of a lot more real.

I don't get how you look at this from Russia's perspective and think it's all reasonable to roll tanks into your neighbor, but you can't look at it from Ukraine’s perspective and think seeking allies is reasonable.

Seeking to join an alliance is sure as hell less aggressive than actually invading a country. And not the first country at that.

It's like you think Russia has some preferred position here that makes things reasonable for them that weren't for others.

Would Ukraine have been justified in invading Russia (if they had the ability) because they found their relationship with China threatening?

What makes Russia special that they get the excuse?

Would Russia have been justified in invading Finland when they were first considering joining NATO ?

Ukraine and Russia should be natural allies.

It's pretty damn comparable to the US and Canada.

Ukraine should be aligned with Russia. Ukraine has always been aligned with Russia. The west pulled off a silent coup and got their puppet government installed to change the sphere of influence and then Ukraine wants to join NATO. Russia clearly and justifiably has a problem with this for obvious reasons. Is it right ? That's debatable. However to say the west didn't specifically goad this fight on for the sole purpose of using Ukrainian blood and American treasure to pump up the military industrial complex in never ending wars to theoretically bleed and weaken the Russians indefinitely to keep them down. Yes I think that was their plan. They are short sighted psychotic maniacs who care more about their pocket books, stock prices, power and globalism than What is actually good for the world and civilization. Never ending wars are great when your domestic government is incompetent and failing. Keep the people distracted. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

Peace is bad for business. Gotta make a Boogeyman if there isn't one. The irony is China actually is and we could have had Russia in our court to counter china and keep them in balance but that's clearly not going to happen anymore. Again, because our elected (installed) puppets bureaucrats and deep state swamp creatures are short sighted arrogant greedy assholes.

Russia shouldn't be our enemy but they are now and it's our own doing.

There is absolutely no reason for Russia to be invading Ukraine except that the west created a reason.

It's hard for me to get my head around that actually we're the bad guys. Our government doesn't care about peace. We don't want peace. We just laughed at a peace deal offer and by the time the next one comes around another 100k or 200k will be dead and the results will be the same just more deatha and destruction.

 

[spat]

Ukraine and Russia should be natural allies.

It's pretty damn comparable to the US and Canada.

Ukraine should be aligned with Russia. Ukraine has always been aligned with Russia. The west pulled off a silent coup and got their puppet government installed to change the sphere of influence and then Ukraine wants to join NATO. Russia clearly and justifiably has a problem with this for obvious reasons. Is it right ? That's debatable. However to say the west didn't specifically goad this fight on for the sole purpose of using Ukrainian blood and American treasure to pump up the military industrial complex in never ending wars to theoretically bleed and weaken the Russians indefinitely to keep them down. Yes I think that was their plan. They are short sighted psychotic maniacs who care more about their pocket books, stock prices, power and globalism than What is actually good for the world and civilization. Never ending wars are great when your domestic government is incompetent and failing. Keep the people distracted. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

Peace is bad for business. Gotta make a Boogeyman if there isn't one. The irony is China actually is and we could have had Russia in our court to counter china and keep them in balance but that's clearly not going to happen anymore. Again, because our elected (installed) puppets bureaucrats and deep state swamp creatures are short sighted arrogant greedy assholes.

Russia shouldn't be our enemy but they are now and it's our own doing.

There is absolutely no reason for Russia to be invading Ukraine except that the west created a reason.

It's hard for me to get my head around that actually we're the bad guys. Our government doesn't care about peace. We don't want peace. We just laughed at a peace deal offer and by the time the next one comes around another 100k or 200k will be dead and the results will be the same just more deatha and destruction.

They should be. But Putin is intent on getting the Soviet Union back together, and Ukraine has no desire to play second fiddle again.

As peers they could have a fantastic relationship, but Russian arrogance won't allow them to accept Ukraine as a peer. So a generation of Russian and Ukranian boys have to die.

 

[Mosinitis]

Going to be real tough shit for Russia.

They're talking themselves into the Iraq treatment.

They are no longer a superpower, they don't have the weight to throw around like that anymore.

Russia is a nuclear power.

 

[Grimscale]

Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.

What was Russia doing that would have forced the Ukraine to seek NATO help? Did they already invade before the U.S. stated Ukraine was going to join NATO? I thought the timeline was that Russia invaded AFTER it was declared Ukraine would join NATO.

But Putin is intent on getting the Soviet Union back together

I hadn't seen a single thing that indicated Putin had a desire to reform the Soviet Union. Doesn't mean it may not have been there, just that, before Russia moved on Ukraine, there was no mention of it.

Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.

So what. It's not like you need a formal treaty to say "no, you can't invade your neighbors".

Neutrality was one of the conditions for Russia allowing Ukraine to become an independent nation. Russia could have easily said "no, you will remain part of the Russian Federation (or Soviet Union, at the time) rather than let them split off.
Instead Russia said "go ahead and be free of us, we only require that you remain neutral otherwise we'll be back."

So the legit .gov of Ukraine gets eliminated and a corrupt U.S. puppet .gov put in place and now there's talk of Ukraine breaking that neutrality pledge they made with Russia. so Russia does what they said they'd do in this case, what Ukraine SIGNED UP FOR.

so what part am I missing?

 

[holdover]

Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.

So what. It's not like you need a formal treaty to say "no, you can't invade your neighbors".

I guess we don't have an agreement with Russia that says we can't sink all their subs and bomb all their ICBMs, so we can just go ahead, right ?

I would still like to hear how you think Putin should have played out the situation . What should Russia HAVE done in the face of the situation?

What would have been the logical move for Russia?

 

[spat]

Russia is a nuclear power.

And that just gives them carte blanche to bully their neighbors?

Being stronger doesn't give you more rights, just more responsibilities.

 

[spat]

I would still like to hear how you think Putin should have played out the situation . What should Russia HAVE done in the face of the situation?

What would have been the logical move for Russia?

Just stay the fuck home.

That's it.

Easiest thing in the world.

The western intelligence agencies set a trap. Just don't step in it.

 

[spat]

What was Russia doing that would have forced the Ukraine to seek NATO help? Did they already invade before the U.S. stated Ukraine was going to join NATO? I thought the timeline was that Russia invaded AFTER it was declared Ukraine would join NATO.


I hadn't seen a single thing that indicated Putin had a desire to reform the Soviet Union. Doesn't mean it may not have been there, just that, before Russia moved on Ukraine, there was no mention of it.



Neutrality was one of the conditions for Russia allowing Ukraine to become an independent nation. Russia could have easily said "no, you will remain part of the Russian Federation (or Soviet Union, at the time) rather than let them split off.
Instead Russia said "go ahead and be free of us, we only require that you remain neutral otherwise we'll be back."

So the legit .gov of Ukraine gets eliminated and a corrupt U.S. puppet .gov put in place and now there's talk of Ukraine breaking that neutrality pledge they made with Russia. so Russia does what they said they'd do in this case, what Ukraine SIGNED UP FOR.

so what part am I missing?

Russia had already invaded a few of it's former satellites.

While this wasn't a forgone conclusion, it was certainly not unreasonable for Ukraine to be worried about it.

And, bottom line, unlike invading your neighbors, it's perfectly reasonable to seek alliances.

Plus, Ukraine *was* an independent nation. Even during the Soviet union. They were a satellite, but they were an independent country.

When the Soviet union broke up, Russia and Ukraine were just the 2 biggest parts left.

Imagine if the EU broke up, but Germany told France that they're not allowed to ally with Britain or they'll get invaded.

Then 20 years later France sees rumbling of Germany getting their old band back together. They've already invaded Austria and Belgium, and they're eyeing France.

So France starts getting chummy with Britain because Germany is getting scary again. Then Germany uses *that* as the excuse to invade them ?

*That's* what this situation looks like if you are reasonable about it.

 

[holdover]

Just stay the fuck home.

That's it.

Easiest thing in the world.

The western intelligence agencies set a trap. Just don't step in it.

Submission is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[spat]

Submission is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not submission to just let your neighbor exist.

The global community decided at the end of WWII not to allow wars of conquest anymore.

Russia has gotten away with far more than they should because of their nuclear weapons, but you can't just let that become a "do whatever you want" card.

This should have gotten the "Desert shield" treatment right away. Would have headed the whole thing off at the pass if international troops had been rotated into Ukraine to play at the border *before* Putin got adventurous.

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

... I watched the new movie "Civil War" last night.
Thoughts on a sequel.
USA as we have known it for 255 years is dissolved:
Mexico invades parts of Texas, California, New Mexico, & Arizona in order to protect Mexicans living in those States.
Mexico is supported by Iranian trained Venezuelan air, land and naval forces, Iranian Special Forces, Chinese land and maritime forces, 5th column saboteurs made up of illegal immigrants from Mexican allied nations allowed into former USA by last Administration, and one of the causes of the Civil War. ...

I'll eventually come around to a casual relationship to dissolution of USSR, modern Russia, historical Tsarist Russia, modern Russia invasion of Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine... Relationship of these countries to historic Russia...

...To be continued...

Need more coffee, and more time...

 

[Mosinitis]

"Europe will never forgive us for winning the war" - Marshal Georgy Zhukov


This is where NATO is planning to open the biggest military base.

 

[Mosinitis]

French Legion

 

[Mosinitis]

Belgian Legion

 

[Mosinitis]

Netherland Legion



Croatian Military

 

[1341]

No wonder there is still no National WWII Memorial in Washington.

I thought I saw this a few years back

 

[Mosinitis]

I thought I saw this a few years back

Last time I was in Washington was 2002, it wasn't there. They finally opened it 59 years after the end of WWII.

 

[holdover]

It is not submission to just let your neighbor exist.

The global community decided at the end of WWII not to allow wars of conquest anymore.

Russia has gotten away with far more than they should because of their nuclear weapons, but you can't just let that become a "do whatever you want" card.

This should have gotten the "Desert shield" treatment right away. Would have headed the whole thing off at the pass if international troops had been rotated into Ukraine to play at the border *before* Putin got adventurous.

So you think Russia should just stay the fuck home, but the US should have desert shielded Russia. ?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

No reason to worry. Nothing to see here move along.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-talks-put-nuclear-weapons-standby-boss-tells-uks-telegraph-2024-06-17/

NATO is pulling more nuclear weapons out of storage to put them on operational standby.

That's certainly ominous as shit. If we aren't at defcon 3 I would be surprised.

 

[spat]

So you think Russia should just stay the fuck home, but the US should have desert shielded Russia. ?

View attachment 237466

Not the US. The whole world.

Desert Storm wasn't the US invading someone.

It was most of the world saying "No, you can't just invade and conquer Kuwait".

There is a big difference.

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

The Kuwaitis were rich enough to field a very capable military. They chose not to. They could have hired a hundred thousand Pakistani mercenaries the way they hire tens of thousands of Pakistanis to clean their homes and offices, work in their oil fields. Instead their pilot princes got in their jet fighters and flew to safety. Their officers packed up their families and fled.

The world should have left them to their chosen fate. The US supplied 95% of the military forces. Don't spout this crap that "the world " invaded to remove Iraq from Kuwait. I think the Dutch supplied a fighter plane. The Chinese didn't supply anybody and the ME was where they got most of their oil back then.

If California is the 3rd largest economy in the world, having the Dutch, or Belgium required to dedicate 2% of their GDP to their own defense is ridiculous when the true costs of NATO are astronomical.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

More good news,

Russia and NK just signed a mutual defense pact.

If the world couldn't become more unstable, well it just did. NK will be seriously emboldened thinking Russia has their back now. Watch that that to flare up again.

 

[spat]

The Kuwaitis were rich enough to field a very capable military. They chose not to. They could have hired a hundred thousand Pakistani mercenaries the way they hire tens of thousands of Pakistanis to clean their homes and offices, work in their oil fields. Instead their pilot princes got in their jet fighters and flew to safety. Their officers packed up their families and fled.

The world should have left them to their chosen fate. The US supplied 95% of the military forces. Don't spout this crap that "the world " invaded to remove Iraq from Kuwait. I think the Dutch supplied a fighter plane. The Chinese didn't supply anybody and the ME was where they got most of their oil back then.

If California is the 3rd largest economy in the world, having the Dutch, or Belgium required to dedicate 2% of their GDP to their own defense is ridiculous when the true costs of NATO are astronomical.

We did all the work, sure.

But most of the countries in the world that have any military capability to speak of sent *some* troops.

It's not about who got the job done. It's about who thought it needed doing, and that was a pretty large coalition there.

And, sure, the Kuwaitis should have been able to defend themselves, but if your neighbor's wife gets raped and murdered, you still expect the murderer to be hunted down, you don't just say "serves her right for not having a CCW"