All I need to know is look at the people in Washington, hollywood and Europe cheering the loudest for Ukraine.
So, if NATO moving in *invited* would have been a violation, WTF do you call Russia rolling tanks across the border ?
And why do you relegate Ukraine to a setting in all this ? They are a sovereign nation with just as many rights as Russia has.
Would it be reasonable for Ukraine to demand Russia stop cozying up to China because it constitutes a threat to Ukraine ?
Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.NATO has been incrementally expanding for decades I think that's the point. Russia wanted to join NATO at one time and they were denied. That would have been genuine world stability. China wouldn't dare step out of line unlike the disaster of a world we have in 2024.
I genuinely feel for the Ukrainian people. I do. I also don't think Russia is so great. Russia isn't some hero but Ukraine is a corrupt puppet and we have forced this war on Russia. We backed them into a corner until we knew they were going to have enough and be forced to act.
Russia isn't as vilionous as they are being portrayed. The US has fought wars for lesser reasons.
I'm just trying to be objective and not biased.
Going to be real tough shit for Russia.There were several reasons for Russian millitary action in Ukraine. NATO expansion, Ukraine's refusal to abide by Minsk agreements and spike in shelling of Donbas that preceded Ukraine's plan to retake it. This was later confirmed by Angela Merkel. Minsk agreements were only signed to buy time and build up Ukrainian military.
Those were the 3 main reasons, each of these was enough to justify military action. All 3 made it unavoidable.
Russia will never accept anti-Russian state on its historic territory populated by their owm ethnos. Tough shit for Washington and for NATO.
Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.Dude, thats the way it was set up. I didnt make the rules. by invitation or no invitation they had entered a neutral country and posed a threat . It is what it is . They are a sovereign nation that broke its neutrality and are paying the price for it .Of course they are a sovereign nation, but their nation happens to be on the strategic border land between east and west. That sovereign nation broke a neutrality agreement with the understanding that Russia would go to war with them . They were inviting foreign army's to build bases on the Russian border
what did you expect the Russians to do? Except it? After screaming for 30 years they would go to war if it did? Except foreign army's on thier border because it would be mean to attack them? A breach of etiquette?? did you expect them to sue? to take them to court while thier enemys take over thier naval bases unopposed ?
Your Vlad Putin. how do you play it out? Whats your move? I want to hear what you realistically think the Russians should have done .
Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.
Just like they did Finland and Sweden.
You guys say Russia was justified because Ukraine was posing a threat.
Well, what about the threat that Russia was posing to Ukraine ? That sure seems like a hell of a lot more real.
I don't get how you look at this from Russia's perspective and think it's all reasonable to roll tanks into your neighbor, but you can't look at it from Ukraine’s perspective and think seeking allies is reasonable.
Seeking to join an alliance is sure as hell less aggressive than actually invading a country. And not the first country at that.
It's like you think Russia has some preferred position here that makes things reasonable for them that weren't for others.
Would Ukraine have been justified in invading Russia (if they had the ability) because they found their relationship with China threatening?
What makes Russia special that they get the excuse?
Would Russia have been justified in invading Finland when they were first considering joining NATO ?
They should be. But Putin is intent on getting the Soviet Union back together, and Ukraine has no desire to play second fiddle again.Ukraine and Russia should be natural allies.
It's pretty damn comparable to the US and Canada.
Ukraine should be aligned with Russia. Ukraine has always been aligned with Russia. The west pulled off a silent coup and got their puppet government installed to change the sphere of influence and then Ukraine wants to join NATO. Russia clearly and justifiably has a problem with this for obvious reasons. Is it right ? That's debatable. However to say the west didn't specifically goad this fight on for the sole purpose of using Ukrainian blood and American treasure to pump up the military industrial complex in never ending wars to theoretically bleed and weaken the Russians indefinitely to keep them down. Yes I think that was their plan. They are short sighted psychotic maniacs who care more about their pocket books, stock prices, power and globalism than What is actually good for the world and civilization. Never ending wars are great when your domestic government is incompetent and failing. Keep the people distracted. We've always been at war with Eurasia.
Peace is bad for business. Gotta make a Boogeyman if there isn't one. The irony is China actually is and we could have had Russia in our court to counter china and keep them in balance but that's clearly not going to happen anymore. Again, because our elected (installed) puppets bureaucrats and deep state swamp creatures are short sighted arrogant greedy assholes.
Russia shouldn't be our enemy but they are now and it's our own doing.
There is absolutely no reason for Russia to be invading Ukraine except that the west created a reason.
It's hard for me to get my head around that actually we're the bad guys. Our government doesn't care about peace. We don't want peace. We just laughed at a peace deal offer and by the time the next one comes around another 100k or 200k will be dead and the results will be the same just more deatha and destruction.
Going to be real tough shit for Russia.
They're talking themselves into the Iraq treatment.
They are no longer a superpower, they don't have the weight to throw around like that anymore.
What was Russia doing that would have forced the Ukraine to seek NATO help? Did they already invade before the U.S. stated Ukraine was going to join NATO? I thought the timeline was that Russia invaded AFTER it was declared Ukraine would join NATO.Russia forced Ukraine into seeking NATO membership.
I hadn't seen a single thing that indicated Putin had a desire to reform the Soviet Union. Doesn't mean it may not have been there, just that, before Russia moved on Ukraine, there was no mention of it.But Putin is intent on getting the Soviet Union back together
Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.
So what. It's not like you need a formal treaty to say "no, you can't invade your neighbors".
Let's say they withdrew from the agreement. They hadn't, but they probably would have if they were going to join NATO.
So what. It's not like you need a formal treaty to say "no, you can't invade your neighbors".
I guess we don't have an agreement with Russia that says we can't sink all their subs and bomb all their ICBMs, so we can just go ahead, right ?
And that just gives them carte blanche to bully their neighbors?Russia is a nuclear power.
Just stay the fuck home.I would still like to hear how you think Putin should have played out the situation . What should Russia HAVE done in the face of the situation?
What would have been the logical move for Russia?
Russia had already invaded a few of it's former satellites.What was Russia doing that would have forced the Ukraine to seek NATO help? Did they already invade before the U.S. stated Ukraine was going to join NATO? I thought the timeline was that Russia invaded AFTER it was declared Ukraine would join NATO.
I hadn't seen a single thing that indicated Putin had a desire to reform the Soviet Union. Doesn't mean it may not have been there, just that, before Russia moved on Ukraine, there was no mention of it.
Neutrality was one of the conditions for Russia allowing Ukraine to become an independent nation. Russia could have easily said "no, you will remain part of the Russian Federation (or Soviet Union, at the time) rather than let them split off.
Instead Russia said "go ahead and be free of us, we only require that you remain neutral otherwise we'll be back."
So the legit .gov of Ukraine gets eliminated and a corrupt U.S. puppet .gov put in place and now there's talk of Ukraine breaking that neutrality pledge they made with Russia. so Russia does what they said they'd do in this case, what Ukraine SIGNED UP FOR.
so what part am I missing?
Just stay the fuck home.
That's it.
Easiest thing in the world.
The western intelligence agencies set a trap. Just don't step in it.
It is not submission to just let your neighbor exist.Submission is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination.
I thought I saw this a few years backNo wonder there is still no National WWII Memorial in Washington.
I thought I saw this a few years back
So you think Russia should just stay the fuck home, but the US should have desert shielded Russia. ?It is not submission to just let your neighbor exist.
The global community decided at the end of WWII not to allow wars of conquest anymore.
Russia has gotten away with far more than they should because of their nuclear weapons, but you can't just let that become a "do whatever you want" card.
This should have gotten the "Desert shield" treatment right away. Would have headed the whole thing off at the pass if international troops had been rotated into Ukraine to play at the border *before* Putin got adventurous.

Not the US. The whole world.So you think Russia should just stay the fuck home, but the US should have desert shielded Russia. ?
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We did all the work, sure.The Kuwaitis were rich enough to field a very capable military. They chose not to. They could have hired a hundred thousand Pakistani mercenaries the way they hire tens of thousands of Pakistanis to clean their homes and offices, work in their oil fields. Instead their pilot princes got in their jet fighters and flew to safety. Their officers packed up their families and fled.
The world should have left them to their chosen fate. The US supplied 95% of the military forces. Don't spout this crap that "the world " invaded to remove Iraq from Kuwait. I think the Dutch supplied a fighter plane. The Chinese didn't supply anybody and the ME was where they got most of their oil back then.
If California is the 3rd largest economy in the world, having the Dutch, or Belgium required to dedicate 2% of their GDP to their own defense is ridiculous when the true costs of NATO are astronomical.
Ukraine and Russia should be natural allies.
It's pretty damn comparable to the US and Canada.
Ukraine should be aligned with Russia. Ukraine has always been aligned with Russia. The west pulled off a silent coup and got their puppet government installed to change the sphere of influence and then Ukraine wants to join NATO. Russia clearly and justifiably has a problem with this for obvious reasons. Is it right ? That's debatable. However to say the west didn't specifically goad this fight on for the sole purpose of using Ukrainian blood and American treasure to pump up the military industrial complex in never ending wars to theoretically bleed and weaken the Russians indefinitely to keep them down. Yes I think that was their plan. They are short sighted psychotic maniacs who care more about their pocket books, stock prices, power and globalism than What is actually good for the world and civilization. Never ending wars are great when your domestic government is incompetent and failing. Keep the people distracted. We've always been at war with Eurasia.
Peace is bad for business. Gotta make a Boogeyman if there isn't one. The irony is China actually is and we could have had Russia in our court to counter china and keep them in balance but that's clearly not going to happen anymore. Again, because our elected (installed) puppets bureaucrats and deep state swamp creatures are short sighted arrogant greedy assholes.
Russia shouldn't be our enemy but they are now and it's our own doing.
There is absolutely no reason for Russia to be invading Ukraine except that the west created a reason.
It's hard for me to get my head around that actually we're the bad guys. Our government doesn't care about peace. We don't want peace. We just laughed at a peace deal offer and by the time the next one comes around another 100k or 200k will be dead and the results will be the same just more deatha and destruction.
The west pulled off a silent coup and got their puppet government installed to change the sphere of influence
