Lets talk WML (Weapon Mounted Lights) all encompassing

[Robin]

I’m not sure I would go shooting at random sounds in the dark. Point shooting is a thing and being able to hit things you’re looking at without utilizing sights is a thing to a point, but you should be able to actually see what you’re looking at and shooting at. If it’s dark and you are just shooting into a black room, that’s a no go for me. PID is essential.

Know your turf.
Robin

 

[Podmonkey]

Weapon lights aren't really about getting PID, not for the private citizen anyway. A solid identification should have already been achieved prior to illumination with the weapon light as at such time you will now be pointing a deadly weapon at the bogey, if in circumstances that it turns such person has a right to be there, or that the is a reasonable explanation for their presence such as a custodian, housekeeper, delivery agent, neighbor or family member with prior permission to be on the property, you are now pointing a gun at them you in many jurisdictions have committed Aggravated Assault which is a serious felony that exposes you to prison time and forfeiture of your 2nd Ammendment rights. Also possibly the involuntary resizing of the anal cavity.
The weapon light is just there to illuminate your target after it becomes necessary to draw down, and just to allow you to align your sights properly. You can't aim at what you can't see clearly.

 

[Will556]

Weapon lights are also not only for the initial PID of the person themselves, you also continue to PID to gain information after the fact. Do you know the person? What’s in their hands? What’s around them? Are there multiple people? What’s the persons behavior?

Anyone can “if” something to death and find every weird nuance to sway a subject one way or another. But what it literally comes down to is, if you’re justified at pointing a firearm at something, use your weapon light it’s that simple.

Since we are on a NY forum…What jurisdictions in NY are you talking about that are changing the definition of the law? Where are we getting Aggravated Assault by only pointing a gun at someone, because that absolutely does not fit the definition of any of the laws. I’m 100% honestly curious where in NY are you seeing an Aggravated Assault charge under article 120 of the Penal Law that fits by only pointing a gun at someone? With any of the Aggravated Assault charges as well as the standard Assault charges you have to not only intend to cause physical injury but you HAVE to cause physical injury. Only pointing a gun at someone isn’t causing physical injury. I’m looking for real life examples and case law in NY of people being charged with Aggravated Assault where the victim did not get injured? Otherwise it’s just random claims with no actual backing to it. If you can find it I’d honestly be intrigued to read it and keep it saved for future reference.

Also, there is no blanket “Aggravated Assault” charge that even exists in the Penal Law like they do for the standard “Assault” charges. They all have very specific stipulations attached to them and there’s only four…

-PL 120.04-A: Aggravated vehicular assault

-PL 120.09-A: Aggravated assault on a judge

-PL 120.11: Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer

-PL 120.12: Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old

If anything you would most likely get a Menacing in the second degree charge…and that’s only “if” you weren’t justified at pointing the gun at them in the first place.

 

[Podmonkey]

Weapon lights are also not only for the initial PID of the person themselves, you also continue to PID to gain information after the fact. Do you know the person? What’s in their hands? What’s around them? Are there multiple people? What’s the persons behavior?

Anyone can “if” something to death and find every weird nuance to sway a subject one way or another. But what it literally comes down to is, if you’re justified at pointing a firearm at something, use your weapon light it’s that simple.

Since we are on a NY forum…What jurisdictions in NY are you talking about that are changing the definition of the law? Where are we getting Aggravated Assault by only pointing a gun at someone, because that absolutely does not fit the definition of any of the laws. I’m 100% honestly curious where in NY are you seeing an Aggravated Assault charge under article 120 of the Penal Law that fits by only pointing a gun at someone? With any of the Aggravated Assault charges as well as the standard Assault charges you have to not only intend to cause physical injury but you HAVE to cause physical injury. Only pointing a gun at someone isn’t causing physical injury. I’m looking for real life examples and case law in NY of people being charged with Aggravated Assault where the victim did not get injured? Otherwise it’s just random claims with no actual backing to it. If you can find it I’d honestly be intrigued to read it and keep it saved for future reference.

Also, there is no blanket “Aggravated Assault” charge that even exists in the Penal Law like they do for the standard “Assault” charges. They all have very specific stipulations attached to them and there’s only four…

-PL 120.04-A: Aggravated vehicular assault

-PL 120.09-A: Aggravated assault on a judge

-PL 120.11: Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer

-PL 120.12: Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old

If anything you would most likely get a Menacing in the second degree charge…and that’s only “if” you weren’t justified at pointing the gun at them in the first place.

Pointing a gun at something that you have not identified is stupid, foolish, unethical and depending on the circumstances potentially highly illegal.
'What if" nothing- your bump in the night is more likely to be your kid, pet, spouse neighbor, pizza delivery guy, door dash guy or perhaps most dangerous of all for you a police officer investigating doings in your area. Initial ID with a handheld light, flip a light switch, call out whatever. We are no longer soldiers, we are not the police. As armed citizens we have tge DUTY to act responsibly and cautiously regardless of tge tactical situation. We are ethically bound to be completely sure of whatever we point a weapon at even if that means giving up the initiative. We are not protected by qualified immunity, moreover, beyond safeguarding the personal well being of our friends, family and fellows we are also responsible for safeguarding our right to bear arms by being responsible in our use of them.
How are you going to feel if during your bump in the night you use your weapon light to ID your bogey you find yourself pointing your gun at the neighbor's kid? And that is not "what if" brigadism that is a very likely scenario, God forbid you have a lapse of trigger discipline in that moment which is not uncommon in a stressful situation.

 

[Criticalt]

Weapon lights aren't really about getting PID, not for the private citizen anyway. A solid identification should have already been achieved prior to illumination with the weapon light as at such time you will now be pointing a deadly weapon at the bogey, if in circumstances that it turns such person has a right to be there, or that the is a reasonable explanation for their presence such as a custodian, housekeeper, delivery agent, neighbor or family member with prior permission to be on the property, you are now pointing a gun at them you in many jurisdictions have committed Aggravated Assault which is a serious felony that exposes you to prison time and forfeiture of your 2nd Ammendment rights. Also possibly the involuntary resizing of the anal cavity.
The weapon light is just there to illuminate your target after it becomes necessary to draw down, and just to allow you to align your sights properly. You can't aim at what you can't see clearly.

I agree.
But again, this depends on your needs.
For me, the WML is 100% for looking for predators that might be coming for my dogs or livestock. That said, if you are a human in our yard in pitch black, you have bad intentions. Any sane person would have a flashlight, or at least their cellphone.
Motion lights are no good for us. We used to have them, but there are always critters setting them off......chickens, dogs, cats....and various wildlife. This caused our house dogs to become used to the lights going on every ten minutes. They stopped alerting us.
Now I just step out the door and use my WML to scan the yard.
I do have a handful of floodlights hooked to one switch. I can light up the entire area with a flip of a switch.......but what fun is that?

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree.
But again, this depends on your needs.
For me, the WML is 100% for looking for predators that might be coming for my dogs or livestock. That said, if you are a human in our yard in pitch black, you have bad intentions. Any sane person would have a flashlight, or at least their cellphone.
Motion lights are no good for us. We used to have them, but there are always critters setting them off......chickens, dogs, cats....and various wildlife. This caused our house dogs to become used to the lights going on every ten minutes. They stopped alerting us.
Now I just step out the door and use my WML to scan the yard.
I do have a handful of floodlights hooked to one switch. I can light up the entire area with a flip of a switch.......but what fun is that?

You can't say that for sure. What of I'm some lost teenager, the victim of some prank gone wrong? What if I'm a deputy investigating some report? Your neighbors dog? Anything. To be honest an intruder with ill intent is probably the least likely thing to br in your yard. You search/scan with a handheld light, anyone responsible enough to have a defensive firearm should also have some kind of powerful handheld also. Search with the handheld and if necessary use the weaponlihht to keep the now illuminated threat in the spotlight and under aim. Sweeping a gun around i the darkness is a very bad idea. I could have phrased that differently but I don't want to turn this thread into a shot show.
I EDC a Zebralight with somewhat greater output than my weapon light, if out and about I search with that. If at home I have a Streamlight Protac HL 5-X which is an excellent duty sized light with great output and reach. It's simple enough to drop the handheld for the draw if needed and using a handheld saces the battery life of your weaponlight besides.
Or in your case why the hell wouldn't you hit all your flood lights at tge first hint of anything out of the ordinary? That alone could cause an intruder to flee, two legged or four. In fact that is your first move, bump in the night, secure your gun and hit the floods, why on earth would you want to search the darkness with a sliver of light? He'll you should rig up additional switches all over the place if you haven't already.

 

[Robin]

If something goes bump in the night and I reach over to make sure the love of my life is still safely tucked in, Yeah, I am up and I have a .45, no light, my turf and I know every square inch of it. You ever been in an armed confrontation? Yeah, I thought so, I win.
Robin

 

[Will556]

Again, like I said before you can “if this” or “if that” and find random made up situations where people claim you shouldn’t have your weapon out or times when you should…So that seems like a debate that will never end because we both can go back and forth and find ways to justify our own sides.

But like I mentioned before, this is a NY forum so I’m still waiting for the information that was found in regard to the Aggravated Assault claims. This isn’t about individual’s feelings regarding wml tactics, it’s much more black and white and there should be case law on it. This is the bigger picture here and would be the repercussions for peoples possible actions. I gave the exact laws that refer to aggravated assault in NY. None of the laws I referenced fit the description in which you claimed they did. I’m looking for real world case law that defends your statement, if you can find them it would be nice to have as a reference.

 

[Podmonkey]

There is no debate about this. There is a responsible way of doing things and an ignorant dumb fuck way of doing things.
It's right in the rules: never point a weapon at something you are unwilling to destroy. How the hell are you to make that determination if you can't see what you are pointing your gun at BEFORE you point it. "I know my AO" you know the land and the layout yes but there is no way of knowing what may have wandered in or for what reason sight unseen. Asses then act, learn to asses quickly and act decisively but always asses first. To do otherwise can lead to tragedy, prison and the degradation of our rights. Ignoring the ifs because you think you have all the probability tables locked down us as stupid as anything.

 

[Podmonkey]

This shit should be self evident, y'all blowing my mind. As a man once said
'When I cross a one way street I look BOTH ways. That's how little faith I have in humanity"

I swear someday I am going build a house, inside out with a patch of grass and garden in the middle, change my name to Wonko The Sane and spend the rest of my days in that little bit of the true outdoors. And over the main door I will hang a sign that reads "ASYLUM ".

 

[Will556]

I totally agree that the absolute dumbest comment I’ve read so far in this whole thing is that I don’t ever need a wml is because someone should “know their turf”. That’s the wildest thing I’ve read so far in this thread.

 

[togmaster]

I know mine. A combination of Kentucky Blue, Rye and creeping red fescue.

 

[Criticalt]

You can't say that for sure. What of I'm some lost teenager, the victim of some prank gone wrong? What if I'm a deputy investigating some report? Your neighbors dog? Anything. To be honest an intruder with ill intent is probably the least likely thing to br in your yard. You search/scan with a handheld light, anyone responsible enough to have a defensive firearm should also have some kind of powerful handheld also. Search with the handheld and if necessary use the weaponlihht to keep the now illuminated threat in the spotlight and under aim. Sweeping a gun around i the darkness is a very bad idea. I could have phrased that differently but I don't want to turn this thread into a shot show.
I EDC a Zebralight with somewhat greater output than my weapon light, if out and about I search with that. If at home I have a Streamlight Protac HL 5-X which is an excellent duty sized light with great output and reach. It's simple enough to drop the handheld for the draw if needed and using a handheld saces the battery life of your weaponlight besides.
Or in your case why the hell wouldn't you hit all your flood lights at tge first hint of anything out of the ordinary? That alone could cause an intruder to flee, two legged or four. In fact that is your first move, bump in the night, secure your gun and hit the floods, why on earth would you want to search the darkness with a sliver of light? He'll you should rig up additional switches all over the place if you haven't already.

Ok, you're not picking up what I'm putting down. I'm am extremely versed in home defense and tactics.
It's too difficult to explain just how unlikely your scenarios are. No neighbors, no road traffic and if someone does come for help, they will not see anything but a flashlight.
If you could experience the proceedings of me using my WML, you would say, "ooooooh, I see".
There is absolutely zero scenarios I haven't thought of and I'm safe and full of care.
When I let the dogs out, there are two flood lights out there. That takes care of any law enforcement. The WML is simply to see 4 legged creatures lying in wait for my 15 pound dog.
If the cops are going to shoot a dude in his sweatpants and Crocs letting his dogs out, that's on them. The only cops that come around here know me. Mostly Sheriff deputies and an occasional NYSP when called. I have never seen a NYSP on our road in 23 years. And there is not anyone around to call them and if they are "investigating" something, I will know they are there before they see me.

 

[Tisto]

In all my years I have NEVER seen any member of any law enforcement agency investigating anything in the complete darkness.

 

[Beerman]

I think we can all agree that weapon mounted lights are not for searching, looking for your shoes under the couch, or for sitting around the campfire telling ghost stories. They’re for target acquisition and increased situational awareness. You never point a weapon at anything you do not wish to destroy, whether there is a light mounted on it or not. We would not clear a building during full daylight with a gun pointed at everything we looked at; the weapon would be pointed in a safe direction to prevent “flagging.” Searching for targets with a WML is just stupid. Just because it’s dark doesn’t make it safe, smart or good tactics to point your weapon at everything you want to see just because that’s where your light source is. Military engagements nothwithstanding, of course. Totally different world with different objectives.

 

[Podmonkey]

Bringing this back to discuss a point:
Both in this very thread and elsewhere across the net and around the watercolor there is some debate over whether a pistol is necessary. My point is whether it is necessary or not does having one actually give any encumbrance? I don't think they don't, not if the appropriate size light is selected. A Streamlight TLR-7 and other lights of this size fit just about flush with the slide on a compact sized gun, in the holster the extra bulk is not noticeable so why is the big deal about having it?
I don't notice the one on my gun and I carry it daily, its just not a factor in terms of comfort or ease of carry.

 

[Darth]

If something goes bump in the night and I reach over to make sure the love of my life is still safely tucked in, Yeah, I am up and I have a .45, no light, my turf and I know every square inch of it. You ever been in an armed confrontation? Yeah, I thought so, I win.
Robin

You tuck your Gunner's Submarine Sandwich in bed next to you?