ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Not in the old days. Round nose ball.
Underwood Ammo
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
You should really carry a revolver (maybe .327 with JSP) concerned as you are about penetration.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You haven't answered my question directly.
Which is more than likely to fail to reach vitals depending on the conditions? HP or FMJ?
How many dangerous cases of over penetration are there since hollow points were invented that prosecutors had a field day with? Insert number here.
Was over penetration an issue before hollow points? Yes or no.
Answer these questions directly.
Which is more than likely to fail to reach vitals depending on the conditions? HP or FMJ?
How many dangerous cases of over penetration are there since hollow points were invented that prosecutors had a field day with? Insert number here.
Was over penetration an issue before hollow points? Yes or no.
Answer these questions directly.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You do realize that the FBI went from .38/.357 flat point to 9mm FMJ, to 9mm hollow points that failed in Miami to .40 S&W and back to 9mm HP.
They keep chasing the penetration they lost and other police departments follow like monkeys. You do too.
Why do you think they keep testing hollow points that'll perform better?
They keep chasing the penetration they lost and other police departments follow like monkeys. You do too.
Why do you think they keep testing hollow points that'll perform better?
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. 9mm has sufficient enough penetration that a revolver isn't necessary. With the revolver, you lose capacity, follow up shot speed, and the ability to reload quickly. It's not worth it.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
You forgot the FBI going to 10mm. Come on Will get with it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That wasn't officially adopted unless I'm mistaken. It was more of a trial. I could be wrong on that.
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ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I thought penetration and hard barriers were all that matters? 9mm is not the golden caliber for those. Ask your boy in the videos what he carries. By the way that buffalo bore hard cast suck. Failed to function in 3 of my 9mm's. The extreme penetrator from underwood did fine though.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It isn't but it will penetrate both sides of a human body. I'm not saying it's the best.
You know that anyway and are just busting balls. The round I'm carrying goes 1300 fps. It's enough given the negatives of other calibers.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
It was for officially adopted for a very short time.
"
n-new “forty round ballistic criteria,” a compromise was reached with the .40 caliber. However, the only .40-cal. then available was the 10 mm. This was a very hot load, unsuitable for the average brick agent. And the other disadvantage was the requirement of a large-frame pistol, then made by only two major manufacturers, S&W and Colt. (The Bren Ten was out of production.) A downloaded 10 mm was tentatively adopted by the FBI using a 180-grain jacketed hollow-point bullet (Sierra) pushed (or lowered) to 950 fps. It proved to be an excellent ballistic combination, although the long case was a problem. The model adopted was the S&W Model 1076.
Not known to the Bureau at that time was that S&W and Winchester Ammunition were already involved in a secret, joint project for a ballistically identical cartridge in a shorter case, similar to the wildcat “Centimeter.” This was, of course, the .40 S&W, perhaps one of the most successful calibers in modern law enforcement history. Meanwhile, the Bureau started receiving its S&W Model 1076s. The results were poor. Originally, many agents thought the guns too large and heavy for plain clothes work. Later, serious problems arose with reliability. Eventually the guns were withdrawn from use and replaced with SIG 226s in 9 mm Luger as an interim fix. Later, SIG 228s were also issued."
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There are many "Firsts" in life.
Today's First for me was found on this forum. (Actually the First started off yesterday).
Today's First was finding out that there is someone out there, someone who knows and understands ammo and firearms, that prefers target ammo in self defense situations. One out of Millions of people who carry a firearm on a daily basis.
Each and every Law enforcement agency in the US carry's Hollow Point. Every Federal LE agency carry's Hollow Point. Nearly every Soldier that I have spoken with that understands ammo, would rather carry HP over the FMJ that the Military says to carry. Firearm experts across the US tell all they encounter to carry HP. But here on this forum, I have found an educated gun guy say they are inferior to Full metal Jackets.
Interesting to say the least.
Today's First for me was found on this forum. (Actually the First started off yesterday).
Today's First was finding out that there is someone out there, someone who knows and understands ammo and firearms, that prefers target ammo in self defense situations. One out of Millions of people who carry a firearm on a daily basis.
Each and every Law enforcement agency in the US carry's Hollow Point. Every Federal LE agency carry's Hollow Point. Nearly every Soldier that I have spoken with that understands ammo, would rather carry HP over the FMJ that the Military says to carry. Firearm experts across the US tell all they encounter to carry HP. But here on this forum, I have found an educated gun guy say they are inferior to Full metal Jackets.
Interesting to say the least.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
See post # 94. They all follow each other's tails. Dispute anything I said in the original post I quoted you on. You won't be able to.
About the only thing you'll be able to say is that so called experts who have been chasing a hollow point that'll penetrate more say that solid bullets are inferior.
They are so inferior that they are the only reliable bullet used in handgun hunting of big game. Solid flat points are what's used. Do you want to know why? Penetration to vitals.
You don't need to be an expert to see that. They're is lots of money in the hollow point industry as well. These so called experts used to say that a 9mm will bounce off you due to the lack in stopping power. Do you remember that? Why do you think that lots of departments issue Critical Duties that barely expand and penetrate to 22 inches in gel?
But again. Dispute what I've said in the post I quoted you on.
Oh. And Underwood isn't target ammo.
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@Willjr75 , if you're worried about penetration look at Gold Dot 115 grain hp's (standard pressure, not +p). Based on tnoutdoors9's YouTube test, it penetrated ~17.5" in gel. That seems sufficient to me. Muzzle velocity was 1200 fps, with ~369 ft-lbs of energy, coming out of a 4" G19 barrel.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Thanks. I've researched all hollow points. That's what I do to waste time. I don't want 17.5 inches. I want 30 inches. That's 9 more inches than the Hornady Critical Duty rounds that do 21 inches that lots of agencies seem to be gravitating to.
Here is there bullet I'm taking about. You'll see that in order to penetrate that depth, it has to expand minimally. Almost none at all.
Wow, 30" is a lot. Those Critical Duty's look good, I think tnoutdoors9 got 16.5" of pen. out of his G19. I've seen some anecdotal stuff online supposedly from a medical examiner talking about LE 9mm loads and effectiveness. I'll try to find it again, I thought it was helpful.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It seems that 30 is a lot but it wasn't in the 80's. That's my point. Also 30 in gel isn't the same as 30 in a body. It's not a 1 to 1 ratio.
A .177 cal steel BB fired at 590 fps must penetrate 3 to 4 inches to calibrate ballistic gel. That same BB barely breaks your skin. If it were a 1 to 1 ratio, it'll reach your heart 4 inches away from your skin in a dead on shot.
Yes, I think everyone here is aware of that.
I found what I was looking for check out this guy's title post, especially #2 about the Gold Dots:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...mm-forensic-standpoint-11.html#/topics/203320
For me, it is all about personal, real life experience. FMJ sucks in real life for doing what a bullet should do. I do not need fancy, backyard videos to show me what works and what does not. I do not need to watch Youtube experts to know that Hollow Point ammunition is best when it comes time to drop a bad guy or the enemy.
Just takes one B or pellet to kill. Last year, 2016, over 175 were killed by these two projectiles. Safe to say, anyone can die from any type of "bullet". Again, I go with real life not make believe backyard videos.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
I was just reading an article on this stuff. Ruger is making these rounds now. The reviewer in the magazine loved them and said he's been continuously impressed and the accuracy has been the best grouping he has seen. Also I was reading some user reviews and they all claim feeding is fantastic. I may try them.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Sorry man. You are full of it. You didn't shoot a fat guy wearing a leather jacket in the shoulder through a car door.
I hate when people say they have experience when they've only shot once or twice. Sorry man.
That's like saying that I saw a guy shot with a .22 so now I have real experience that a .22 is adequate for self defense.
I guess I'm an expert on .5.56 mm green tips and can say that there is nothing better out there since I may or may not have seen a death from one.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
GP. You are being ridiculous. Come on dude.
First off Will, with all due respect, you have no idea what I did or did not do in 25 years in the Military or with all of my deployments.
It is not a matter of me seeing someone else do something.
As for the "GP. You are being ridiculous. Come on dude."...
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...-homicide-charge-in-pellet-gun-death/3784679/
Oklahoma boy killed after being shot with pellet gun
Michigan man enters plea in roommate's pellet rifle slaying
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.c...rt-docs-man-killed-woman-pellet-gun/84507456/
The list goes on and on about these types of deaths. There are many, many more. There was a guy just arrested a couple of weeks ago for killing another in Erie County with a pellet gun. He was shot from appro. 30 yards away. Got hit and dropped where he stood dead.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I guess all the real life experience from FMJ's, semi wadcutters, and flat point bullets from the military and police up to the late 80's means nothing.
Sure, they mean something. To the ones that did the shooting. I do not use others' experience; I use my own. Some of us have real life and others do not. I stand by mine.
If you have real life, use what you have and know.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Why are you focusing on BB's? Did I say they couldn't kill? A marble can kill you. Lets start on topic.
As far as your military service, I doubt you shot men with FMJ's and hollow points and compared the 2.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Stop it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Unless you shoot 2 bodies under the same conditions with both a hollow point and a solid bullet in the same place,, you don't have real life experience.