I am not wrong about anything. I have told you all along your idea of using FMJ for a self defense round is indefensible in a civil case (with the exception of .380 or .22)if there is an innocent bystander shot in general and/or in regards to over penetration (that includes shooting someone and having the FMJ round pass through them and hitting an innocent)...simple..to the point....and there is NO firearms, self defense, ballistics, criminal and civil expert, LEO or Federal that would agree with you or help you in your case.....so...like I have said feel free to do what you want but don't put other people on this forum in potential jeopardy from your stupidity.
Underwood Ammo
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I tell you that the police don't recommend anything. You then change it up and say that you meant they recommend to it's officers. BS. Read your above quote again. That's not what you are saying. Try again. Why would Jersey recommend FMJ's or flat points to it's officers if they issue them hollow points? Answer. Because that wasn't what you meant and are saying it is as not to be wrong.
I tell you that a hollow point miss is an overpenetrator and that it penetrates the same if you miss and and hit a hard barrier. Then you say this below.
I then show you video that a hollow point will penetrate the same and you disregard it.
You keep repeating this nonsense as if it's fact because 2 people in your family are lawyers. Give me a break. Where does it say anywhere that a FMJ is illegal for defense? It doesn't. If you kill someone due to negligence whether from a FMJ pass-through or a missed hollow point because you didn't know what was beyond your target, the charge is the same. I guess you can't use a shotgun or rifle for defense because those projectiles pass through. A .380 FMJ like you recommend does as well on most people being that it penetrates 20 inches plus in gel.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Give up dude. You look like a fool trying to win a competition. This isn't one. I would gladly be wrong if I actually learned something.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
If they don't expand, why not just cheap FMJ ?
What is the terminal benefit from an expensive round if it just leaves a clean hole through anyway ?
For that price, I'd want someone who loaded mechanical broadheads that scissor open.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
They stay straight. The round nosed FMJ deflects and finds it's own path after hitting bone or hard objects like car glass, ect., hindering penetration and trajectory at times. Also, I wanted a +P Flat Point going close to 1300 fps. You know, frying pans and such.
Those are for carry. I still have tons of NATO rounds.
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GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
After all the penetration talk in this thread I had to go jerk off. Thanks a lot fucktards!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So I proposed this very question to Mas Ayoob
Here is my question to him...
"We were having a discussion about FMJ and JHP carry ammo. Is there a potential legal issue if you carry say 9mm or 45mm FMJ in regards to over penetration? Or is over penetration just a myth and shouldn't be a concern for civilians? We understand a good shoot is a good shoot but there can still be civil prosecution.
Thanks Mas!"
Here is his response back to me
"No myth at all. Lots of people have been hit by ball rounds that went through bad guys first. The very fact that you knew about the issue well enough to post about it here, would indicate after such a shooting that you had a reckless disregard for innocent human life, in the eyes of opposing counsel.
Dude: Go JHP.
best,
Ma"
Here is my question to him...
"We were having a discussion about FMJ and JHP carry ammo. Is there a potential legal issue if you carry say 9mm or 45mm FMJ in regards to over penetration? Or is over penetration just a myth and shouldn't be a concern for civilians? We understand a good shoot is a good shoot but there can still be civil prosecution.
Thanks Mas!"
Here is his response back to me
"No myth at all. Lots of people have been hit by ball rounds that went through bad guys first. The very fact that you knew about the issue well enough to post about it here, would indicate after such a shooting that you had a reckless disregard for innocent human life, in the eyes of opposing counsel.
Dude: Go JHP.
best,
Ma"
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
From the FBI academy firearms training unit manual titled “Handgun Wounding and Effectiveness”.
The poignant parts I'm quoting from the text below:
"An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.
Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.
Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration (i.e. Glaser Safety Slugs, .380, 9mm, etc.) will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Massad is not the end all. If you look online, he has been known to give bad advice.
A hollow point is designed to limit penetration in a body. With that said, it works on the average body but doesn't work in all instances. Big people, shooting through a barrier and slowing down to then go into a body, shooting at a non optimal angle having to go through a shoulder, shooting through a barrier and then through a thick leather jacket into a big guy, ect.
More problems have happened with under penetration with hollow points than over penetration with solids. That's fact. And once again, in almost every major shooting, there are misses. What about those? Those are more dangerous.
Know your target beyond and hope for the best.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
His advice in this case is spot on. Come on now Will. FMJ/Solids are a terrible choice for carry. The FBI (that does all the tests you like) don't carry them! Unless it's a 1911 with ball ammo like Jeff Cooper carried it's a bad choice.
When I worked for the Military, I used FMJ. That is what they told us to use. I worked. That ammo did what it was meant too do. It killed.
On my current job, we are required to use Hollow Points. That is what I carry, no questions asked.
In my everyday normal life, I also load nothing but Hollow Points. Wanna know why? Because they kill. They kill better than FMJ. Simple.
On my current job, we are required to use Hollow Points. That is what I carry, no questions asked.
In my everyday normal life, I also load nothing but Hollow Points. Wanna know why? Because they kill. They kill better than FMJ. Simple.
So in a court of law who are they going to listen too? Will who gives bad advice on the internet or Mas who is considered one of the leading experts in this field even if sometimes he gives bad advice? Really Will?? It's ok when you are wrong...
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
They are going to listen to your lawyer. You'll only be in court if you shoot an innocent with a shot that over penetrated or a complete miss which can or will happen with any hollow point, shotgun, or rifle.
It hardly ever happens to go around worrying about it. That's fact.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Not true. Hollow points make wound channels that are a millimeter or so larger and stop half way in a body while a solid bullet goes full through the body. One can argue that a wound channel that goes all the way through actually destroys more tissue than a slightly larger one that only goes halfway but destroying tissue doesn't kill immediately so that point is null.
Penetration to vitals is what immediately kills. A solid bullet ensures that. It isn't going to be hindered by a barrier, angle of shot where it has to go through a shoulder, or excess fat, bone, or muscle.
A solid bullet is more reliable.
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R
ROFLMAO There is WIll's facts and there is rest of the world fact's.....You actually crack me up.....There is almost always a court case criminal and civil after a civilian shooting. There just was court case look up CCW Safe....Anyway please stop giving out wrongful advice that could actually harm people on the forum
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Enough with the internet childish acronyms. That's all you have. Show me where there are multiple convictions of over penetration due to using FMJ. You won't be able to.
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That's not all I have. You do your own research. My family has been in the legal and medical field for over 68 years. You are absolutely clueless. You are actually giving out harmful and dangerous advice. At this point you need to stop giving out foolish and wrongful advice about carrying FMJ. The military uses FMJ due to a treaty and the rest of the United States other than Will carry JHP. The FBI, the police, the border patrol, the secret service, the marshals....the whole rest of the USA...sans New Jersey for civilians. So what is your point? Will know's best? Will doesn't know best in this case. Matter of fact your lucky I am not an admin on this site...I would just ban you for good due to your horrible potentially harmful advice
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. I just don't follow the sheep. I think for myself. I research.
You are all over the place with your points.
Answer this question.
Which will more than likely fail compared to the other in reaching vitals? HP or FMJ?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'm waiting. Answer honestly.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ban me. That's funny. Because I don't agree with you? Dangerous advice. Also funny. Before hollow points everyone was dangerous. There was so much blood in the streets due to over penetration.
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ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Watching Will devolve has been funny. From .45 to 9mm. From jhp to fmj. What's next?
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
You think those old round nose .38's stopped better than JHP?
I am not all over the place with points. The whole point is the rest of the USA uses hollow points for self defense carry ammo. Will uses FMJ. I don't have any issue with you using FMJ. The issue is trying to tell others that it is ok. You are dead wrong and that is horrible advice. That advice can be harmful to someone who actually isn't bright enough to realize you are wrong. You aren't just disagreeing with me...You are disagreeing with tens of millions of people in law enforcement, people in the firearms industry and expert people in the just about every field under the sun. I am happy for you that you aren't a sheep but a wolf doesn't always make the best decisions either. Harmful doesn't mean physical harm in this case. Knowingly suggesting to carry FMJ for a civilian is about the worst advice you could ever provide. YES FMJ penetrates further than JHP. There is no arguing that point. Nor did I ever argue that point. YES you would have an indefensible civil case if knowingly carried FMJ over JHP. The prosecutor would tear you apart limb by limb. That could cost someone who followed your advice millions of dollars...That is what is harmful. At least give yourself a fighting chance and do what ALL the experts recommend even if you don't agree with it. This isnt the World according to Will forum.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's what happens when you research.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
That's what happens when you ignore research (in this case).
Get yourself a .45 and some honey badger ammo.
ROFLMAO...research is suppose to make you smarter and better informed...LMAO...I think you missed the memo on that one!!
Edit...sorry Will that wasn't very nice of me....my apologies
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
They were semi wadcutters. The police had no issues stopping threats.