meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
22LR .. lots of it.
What's the smallest caliber you trust for SD
- Thread starter Harry Hood
- Start date
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I agree with that 100% , But that's not question.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Correct. And a .308 will drop you where you stand anywhere in the chest.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I agree with that too!
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
But sometimes the 556 will not. That information was given to me by men ,some from the same unit who witnessed it first hand. I know these guys arnt making up stories . I know what they told me and Im passing it on , If you think its made up nonsense for no reason , that's on you . I believe them, and have no reason to doubt them .
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'm not saying you're making it up. I'm just saying that most military guys knock their equipment and repeat folklore.
I know military guys who have said the 5.56 tumbles out of the muzzle.
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ECU Pirates
.308 Win
If the conversation took place in a bar, even more so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bananabandit
.338 Win Mag
Id use 380 but 9mm is cheaper to train.
As many have already said, any gun that I have, any caliber, is better than nothing.
I, personally, would carry nothing less than a 9mm. I have seen first hand, a few times now, where people survive after multiple shots with small rounds.
No, I would not be willing to test caliber kill rates. All bullets can kill, I get that. I would not be willing to chance a smaller caliber to save my life in a defensive situation.
I, personally, would carry nothing less than a 9mm. I have seen first hand, a few times now, where people survive after multiple shots with small rounds.
No, I would not be willing to test caliber kill rates. All bullets can kill, I get that. I would not be willing to chance a smaller caliber to save my life in a defensive situation.
Uzi
.308 Win
I only carry 50bmg single shot pistols. 300 blackout doesn't do any damage because the military doesn't use it btw. It's only good for suppressors because most of the rounds don't go over 3000fps. I heard it from some guys on the forum.
Bananabandit
.338 Win Mag
Thought about getting a 50bmg pistol but idk. Pretty expensive.
I concur that any gun is better than no gun when in need,- obviously.
For me, I want either a .357 (SP101); .45 (Shield .45); or 9mm (Shield 9mm) for SD when carrying concealed as they are reasonably light, very concealable, and I shoot them accurately.
Who can forget the video of the muzzie that stabbed 9 people in the Minnesota mall when he was finally shot and killed by the off duty cop. Even as he was shot repeatedly, he kept getting up and advancing toward the cop and trying to attack him as he bled out on the floor.
If weight and concealment is not an issue (home defense), I want max firepower and rounds available to me...,- you name it, I want it.
For me, I want either a .357 (SP101); .45 (Shield .45); or 9mm (Shield 9mm) for SD when carrying concealed as they are reasonably light, very concealable, and I shoot them accurately.
Who can forget the video of the muzzie that stabbed 9 people in the Minnesota mall when he was finally shot and killed by the off duty cop. Even as he was shot repeatedly, he kept getting up and advancing toward the cop and trying to attack him as he bled out on the floor.
If weight and concealment is not an issue (home defense), I want max firepower and rounds available to me...,- you name it, I want it.
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holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
the conversation took place in a crack house by three old ladies
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Here's a combat medic corroborating the stories I related :
""I was an EMT and a trauma tech working on a truck and in a trauma room for about 10 years and I was an army combat medic for eight years.
Unfortunately, the same goes for the 5.56 NATO round. I have yet to witness a single shot quick kill with this round. I even recorded a patient shot from less than three feet away, square in the back of the head, who lived. The round did not exit his body. Yes, he was immediately rendered unconscious and required (might I say exceptional) medical treatment. He was comatose for at least six months after that, but he lived.
But more importantly, in every experience, at ranges from zero (negligent discharges) to 35 yards (my closest, and worst-placed, shot on a person) to 400 yards (our average initial engagement distance in Afghanistan) individuals shot with a single 5.56 NATO round had time to fire, maneuver, or both. Did I see single shots that killed eventually? Yes. Does that matter in combat? Not one damn bit if you are the one they are still shooting at.
In my experience, the standard NATO combat round pokes 5.56mm holes in both bones and flesh, shattering nothing. It creates minimal bleeding. I know people say it tumbles and yaws, but that isn’t my experience at all. I saw it poke tiny holes in humans and rarely induced hemorrhaging sufficient to cause unconsciousness or uncompensated shock, which is the only result that matters.""
Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle round...shoot at what (you) can hit, and then shoot it again" - The Truth About Guns
A well place round to “center mass” in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it. If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker. One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.
The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight -Triggernometry - GunsAmerica Digest
9 December 1965 in the official 'After Action Report of the Ia Drang Valley Operation . . ..' popularized by the movie and book We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young. The commanding officer of the battalion engaged there, Col. Harold G. Moore, USA, writes of assaulting enemy soldiers being hit by 5.56mm rounds: "Even after being hit several times in the chest, many continued firing and moving for several more steps before dropping dead." [9.]
Later in that war, a similar experience is voiced by Col. John Hayworth, USA (Ret.): 'In one fire—fight, I saw my RTO place three rounds [of 5.56 mm] in the chest of a charging NVA regular at 50 yards. He kept firing his AK and never slowed down. At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again.' [10.]
In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the DoD increased the weight of the 5.56mm 55—grain bullet (M193) to 62—grains, replaced some of its lead core with a tungsten steel core, painted the bullet tip green and designated the new cartridge M855. In 1991, the Pentagon sent its warriors to the Gulf War with this new green—tip cartridge. Maj. Howard Feldmeier, USMC (Ret.) was there: ' . . . several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2—3 or more times with the 62—grain 5.56mm green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them . . ..' That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: 'Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK—47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three round burst from their M—16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] . . . kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty. When he got up to the Marines two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire. . . . He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station . . .. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56mm wounds . . ..' [11.]
In spite of the above 'lesson learned,' the DoD dispatched its warriors to combat in Somalia in 1993 with the same flawed 'green tip' cartridge as testified in Mark Bowden's book Black Hawk Down: 'His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR—15, and he was shooting the army's new 5.56mm green tip round. . . . The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention.'
The Pentagon remained unmoved by that experience of its warriors and continued to send them to war underpowered. On 4 April 2002, I received an e—mail from a trooper in Afghanistan who appeals, in part: 'The current—issue 62gr 5.56mm (223) round, especially when fired from the short—barreled, M—4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as [a] man stopper. Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers. Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination.' [12.]
In a 3 March 2003 written briefing, LCdr. Gary K. Roberts, USNR recommended to RAdm. Albert M. Calland, Commander, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Command that he upgrades his command's 5.56mm weapons to the 6.8mm cartridge. That briefing, entitled, 'Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability,' opens by observing:
Recent combat operations have highlighted terminal performance problems, generally manifested as failures to rapidly incapacitate opponents, during combat operations when M855 62gr. 'Green Tip' FMJ is fired from 5.56mm rifles and carbines. Failure to rapidly incapacitate armed opponents increases the risk of U.S. forces being injured or killed and jeopardizes mission success. [13.]
That statement was prophetic.
On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M—4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M—16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK—47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three—round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M—4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77—grain weight vice the 62—grain bullets in use by general—purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4NuGluIIH
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
Everything I said earlier has been corroborated .Still think that those old ladies in a crack house are full of shit?
""I was an EMT and a trauma tech working on a truck and in a trauma room for about 10 years and I was an army combat medic for eight years.
Unfortunately, the same goes for the 5.56 NATO round. I have yet to witness a single shot quick kill with this round. I even recorded a patient shot from less than three feet away, square in the back of the head, who lived. The round did not exit his body. Yes, he was immediately rendered unconscious and required (might I say exceptional) medical treatment. He was comatose for at least six months after that, but he lived.
But more importantly, in every experience, at ranges from zero (negligent discharges) to 35 yards (my closest, and worst-placed, shot on a person) to 400 yards (our average initial engagement distance in Afghanistan) individuals shot with a single 5.56 NATO round had time to fire, maneuver, or both. Did I see single shots that killed eventually? Yes. Does that matter in combat? Not one damn bit if you are the one they are still shooting at.
In my experience, the standard NATO combat round pokes 5.56mm holes in both bones and flesh, shattering nothing. It creates minimal bleeding. I know people say it tumbles and yaws, but that isn’t my experience at all. I saw it poke tiny holes in humans and rarely induced hemorrhaging sufficient to cause unconsciousness or uncompensated shock, which is the only result that matters.""
Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle round...shoot at what (you) can hit, and then shoot it again" - The Truth About Guns
A well place round to “center mass” in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it. If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker. One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.
The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight -Triggernometry - GunsAmerica Digest
9 December 1965 in the official 'After Action Report of the Ia Drang Valley Operation . . ..' popularized by the movie and book We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young. The commanding officer of the battalion engaged there, Col. Harold G. Moore, USA, writes of assaulting enemy soldiers being hit by 5.56mm rounds: "Even after being hit several times in the chest, many continued firing and moving for several more steps before dropping dead." [9.]
Later in that war, a similar experience is voiced by Col. John Hayworth, USA (Ret.): 'In one fire—fight, I saw my RTO place three rounds [of 5.56 mm] in the chest of a charging NVA regular at 50 yards. He kept firing his AK and never slowed down. At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again.' [10.]
In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the DoD increased the weight of the 5.56mm 55—grain bullet (M193) to 62—grains, replaced some of its lead core with a tungsten steel core, painted the bullet tip green and designated the new cartridge M855. In 1991, the Pentagon sent its warriors to the Gulf War with this new green—tip cartridge. Maj. Howard Feldmeier, USMC (Ret.) was there: ' . . . several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2—3 or more times with the 62—grain 5.56mm green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them . . ..' That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: 'Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK—47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three round burst from their M—16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] . . . kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty. When he got up to the Marines two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire. . . . He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station . . .. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56mm wounds . . ..' [11.]
In spite of the above 'lesson learned,' the DoD dispatched its warriors to combat in Somalia in 1993 with the same flawed 'green tip' cartridge as testified in Mark Bowden's book Black Hawk Down: 'His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR—15, and he was shooting the army's new 5.56mm green tip round. . . . The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention.'
The Pentagon remained unmoved by that experience of its warriors and continued to send them to war underpowered. On 4 April 2002, I received an e—mail from a trooper in Afghanistan who appeals, in part: 'The current—issue 62gr 5.56mm (223) round, especially when fired from the short—barreled, M—4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as [a] man stopper. Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers. Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination.' [12.]
In a 3 March 2003 written briefing, LCdr. Gary K. Roberts, USNR recommended to RAdm. Albert M. Calland, Commander, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Command that he upgrades his command's 5.56mm weapons to the 6.8mm cartridge. That briefing, entitled, 'Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability,' opens by observing:
Recent combat operations have highlighted terminal performance problems, generally manifested as failures to rapidly incapacitate opponents, during combat operations when M855 62gr. 'Green Tip' FMJ is fired from 5.56mm rifles and carbines. Failure to rapidly incapacitate armed opponents increases the risk of U.S. forces being injured or killed and jeopardizes mission success. [13.]
That statement was prophetic.
On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M—4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M—16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK—47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three—round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M—4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77—grain weight vice the 62—grain bullets in use by general—purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4NuGluIIH
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
Everything I said earlier has been corroborated .Still think that those old ladies in a crack house are full of shit?
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I have seen the aftermath of a muzzle contact point blank shooting with 5.56 rounds to the lower abdomen. The guy was in pain and basically walking dead because of the internal damage clipping both arteries, he had no exit wound. There was no saving him even with a hospital 10 minutes away. I have heard stories of guys that were in Somalia where the rounds would zip right through the "skinnies" My father also told me of rounds shot at smaller "VC" zipping right through them. He taught me to aim for the pelvis region if the first couple rounds did not stop the forward momentum of the target. A shot to the pelvis will stop forward movement on foot, make them less mobile but, still leave the target dangerous follow up shots will be required to kill it.
The 5.56 will tend to yaw and fragment inside the body as the bullet slows down in the tissue and bone. It may not stop them all of a sudden but it does get their attention ( unless they are hopped up on drugs).
The 5.56 will tend to yaw and fragment inside the body as the bullet slows down in the tissue and bone. It may not stop them all of a sudden but it does get their attention ( unless they are hopped up on drugs).
I have to agree. The Green Berets I served with, many at that point already having multiple tours of combat experience prior to Afghanistan firing up, mostly panned the 5.56 as weak.
Our arms room had quite an assortment of "non-standard" weapons, and while each GB was obviously assigned an M4 and M9, they always took other weapons with them when we deployed, stuff they prefferred to the issue firearms.
IMO, the FMJ is the biggest issue.
Our arms room had quite an assortment of "non-standard" weapons, and while each GB was obviously assigned an M4 and M9, they always took other weapons with them when we deployed, stuff they prefferred to the issue firearms.
IMO, the FMJ is the biggest issue.
Phazer
.338 Win Mag
That's why I keep a few boxes of magic 45acp at home for protection.
If I was permitted to carry, I'd go with a platform with which I'd practiced regularly at the range, dry fired from concealment, and with which I had taken multiple concealed carry courses. So...XDS, LC9S, or Glock 43. So...9mm here. That said, I'd have no issue with pocket carrying my Glock 42 or Sig P238, both in .380acp.
Now, my real issue: How to get restrictions removed in the Progressive Utopia of Westchester. (Working on it....)
Hit the nail right on the head. The reason that most military rounds fail to perform as a civilian version does is the projectile. The 9mm is horrible in combat the FMJ projectile cannot do what a hollow point does. The 7.62 FMJ will leave entry and exit wounds because of its energy and lack of expansion in human sized targets. The 5.56 sufferers from lack of speed from the 14 inch barrels the same rounds from a 20 inch barrel do a lot more damage to the target and perform as expected. They still don't work as well as their civilian counterpart.
I agree with the idea all bullets will kill with proper shot placement. The real debate comes from what round do you believe has enough stopping power to make the threat disengage from the fight.
For pistol 380 with top of the line ammo.
For rifle 223/ 556. As far the debate going above about combat effectiveness of this round I have one question for them. What ammo where they using? Ball or ball with penetrater? If that is what they were using I can understand their compliant. I think the 223 shines with a more conventional bullet. Either soft point, ballistic tipped or partitioned bullet. These all allow the bullet to transfer the energy to the target more efficiently. The whole thing about standard ball rounds tumbling inside the target I'm sure it helps with leathality but does little for stopping power.
For pistol 380 with top of the line ammo.
For rifle 223/ 556. As far the debate going above about combat effectiveness of this round I have one question for them. What ammo where they using? Ball or ball with penetrater? If that is what they were using I can understand their compliant. I think the 223 shines with a more conventional bullet. Either soft point, ballistic tipped or partitioned bullet. These all allow the bullet to transfer the energy to the target more efficiently. The whole thing about standard ball rounds tumbling inside the target I'm sure it helps with leathality but does little for stopping power.
The tendency to yaw in the body does two things; 1) the bullet will start to fragment ( except the 9mm ball) 2) dumping energy, if the bullet stays in the body all of its energy will have an effect on the target. A bullet that zips through the body is wasting energy somewhere else. The 50 BMG will zip through a human target, it has so much energy that it doesn't need it all for human targets.
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
I made my choice and it's a 9 mm. I may too switch to a .45 some day. I have a double stacked .45 1911 that I have considered carrying, but it's pretty heavy. I would carry a .380 on the summer of I needed something really small for concealment and it meant not having a gun otherwise.
In the 60-70s the M193 ball round was issued beginning in the mid 80s the M855 ball round was issued. The new M855A1 has been being integrated for the past 3 years, we still use the M855 for a majority of things.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I will concede that the 5.56 is not better than a .308 if the wrong ammo and or platform is used.
The 5.56 is dependant on velocity to work. The shortening of the barrel and the penetrator rounds designed for the Saw diminish the effectiveness of the round as designed.
The 5.56 is dependant on velocity to work. The shortening of the barrel and the penetrator rounds designed for the Saw diminish the effectiveness of the round as designed.
Mr. terzmo
.308 Win
I'll carry a 380 with hollow points for convenience in the summer....BUT prefer my 357 or 40 with hollow points most times....I could carry the 357 in the summer but the 380 is so much easier.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I hope you are carrying the right hollow points. Any old hollow point in that caliber fail to reach vitals after expanding according to tests conducted.
Mr. terzmo
.308 Win
+P hollow points...at close range..last resort defense....I'm taking a headshot first
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Look up Ammo Quest .380 on YouTube. Only about 4 rounds fired from a 3 inch barrel actually reach the minimum of 12 inches after expansion.
IMHO Head shots are terrible ideas unless the muzzle is in contact with the flesh. It is a small highly movable target with only an orange sized effective area for positive stops.
If that is your plan I wish you good luck.
Depick
.308 Win
I prefer 9mm and I practice with it the most.