spat
.950 JDJ
I seriously doubt that anyone's intent was to shut down 911.
They all wanted to send a message for sure, but I doubt any of them thought there would be enough of a reaction that it would cause a problem.
Red Flag standoff in Mahopac
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
They all wanted to send a message for sure, but I doubt any of them thought there would be enough of a reaction that it would cause a problem.
So what should the reaction be if someone is red flagged without any prior issues domestic or otherwise? I’ll personalize it: I’m clearly not LEO and I have ZERO history with law enforcement and courts other than a couple of speeding tickets in my past (all plead down to other violations - never had a point on my license for any reason).
Let’s say I get red flagged without any other complicating factors. Neighbor pissed off because my dog crapped on his lawn or any other nonviolent reason. I send out a flare on nygunforum and on social media that they’re coming/banging on my door to confiscate my legally owned property.
1) What should the 2A community do?
a) Assume I must be guilty of something so do nothing and allow this raid to continue with no due process, and therefore allow this type of confiscation to spread
b) show up en masse and post on social media as a show of support for the accused and put politicians/law enforcement on notice that people are united and opposed to red flag confiscations
c) something else?
2) What should Law Enforcement do?
a) comply with the order and enforce it without question
b) investigate situation first to see if red flag warranted due to prior history and decide whether or not to enforce (maybe make a “welfare check” visit)
c) refuse to comply with red flag order as unconstitutional bypass of due process.
d) something else?
Not being confrontational here just trying to understand the rules. I’d like to think that I maintain certain legal and Constitutional protections as an average American citizen.
I’d love to hear both sides without personal attacks. If we as a community of like minded people can’t discuss this I have little hope it can be done on a national scale.
Let’s say I get red flagged without any other complicating factors. Neighbor pissed off because my dog crapped on his lawn or any other nonviolent reason. I send out a flare on nygunforum and on social media that they’re coming/banging on my door to confiscate my legally owned property.
1) What should the 2A community do?
a) Assume I must be guilty of something so do nothing and allow this raid to continue with no due process, and therefore allow this type of confiscation to spread
b) show up en masse and post on social media as a show of support for the accused and put politicians/law enforcement on notice that people are united and opposed to red flag confiscations
c) something else?
2) What should Law Enforcement do?
a) comply with the order and enforce it without question
b) investigate situation first to see if red flag warranted due to prior history and decide whether or not to enforce (maybe make a “welfare check” visit)
c) refuse to comply with red flag order as unconstitutional bypass of due process.
d) something else?
Not being confrontational here just trying to understand the rules. I’d like to think that I maintain certain legal and Constitutional protections as an average American citizen.
I’d love to hear both sides without personal attacks. If we as a community of like minded people can’t discuss this I have little hope it can be done on a national scale.
I can't agree with this more. This is very insightful and in my opinion wise.
Also why I made my earlier post about I'm predicting things to get much worse by 2024.
The old saying, there is the ballot box, the jury box and lastly the bullet box is beginning to become apparent.
And no I'm not condoning or Hoping for violence. Let me be clear on that. It's Just my prediction on trying to observe and make an informed prediction on where things are heading.
The right has typically given unconditional support to the rule of law, politicians and law and order. We are seeing a paradigm shift where our trust has been breached. In my opinion politicians have a very short window of time to right the ship before it becomes nearly impossible to redeem.
1075tech
.338 Win Mag
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I don't have answers to any of those questions, but they are something that I've been wrestling with for some time now.
I think every American, whether they live in New York or not, will have a reckoning about this sooner rather than later.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional, period. They should never been enforced, period. I would rather let a guilty person go free than violate the rights of the innocent.
Follow due process.
Follow due process.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yes, that has been the sentiment since day one of this country's founding. Things are changing, the commies have been very successful.
Robin
We lose more rights every year.
Politicians NEVER spend time thinking of how they can eliminate laws and infringements. It's always "we must enact new measures..."
They think their sole purpose is to increase their power and decrease our freedoms.
They dont think it's their purpose, it's their goal. Their end game is total control. Enslavement for us so they can continue to live their pedo, dictatorship lifestyle.
With all due respect I’d really like to know what people think should be done when something like this happens again both from a law enforcement perspective and from a average Joe perspective. I think we’ve made the arguments against politicians and infringement on our rights ad nauseum.
Would this be better served with a new thread?
Would this be better served with a new thread?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I’ve always said that the police are the last checks and balances and only they can put a stop to government overreach before they in fact become the tyrannical government. We the people aren’t the last checks and balances. They are because when it turns to shit, there will be no legitimate government.
This wasn't a red flag situation though. Why would we discuss that? This is exactly my point.
A bunch of yahoos from all of the country decided to involve themselves in a local matter because for some reason (or many reasons?) they decided it was somehow a 2nd Amendment issue. They then all apparently had emergencies which needed to be reported via 911 in Putnam County, resulting in a clogging of the system.
I mean, that must be what happened since everyone knows there is literally no other legitimate reason to call 911, right?
Then, to make matters worse, they encouraged hero operators to rally up to meet the police, further inflaming the situation. Hopefully an example is made of those who were arrested in doing so. Maybe a few of the false 911 callers as well.
You know what? I'm going to pull a random job from our computer that happened today. We'll just decide it's a 2nd Amendment issue and then discuss it from the point of view of "cops and government are bad so even if we are dead wrong, who cares?"
I mean after all, because of everything going on supposedly, even when wrong, it's just a "sign of the times" so who could fault us?
IF that doesn't speak to you as where I am coming from in regards to THIS situation, well I don't know what else to say other than legitimate victims already are paying for police reluctance and it will only get worse if NONSENSE like this happens more often.
A bunch of yahoos from all of the country decided to involve themselves in a local matter because for some reason (or many reasons?) they decided it was somehow a 2nd Amendment issue. They then all apparently had emergencies which needed to be reported via 911 in Putnam County, resulting in a clogging of the system.
I mean, that must be what happened since everyone knows there is literally no other legitimate reason to call 911, right?
Then, to make matters worse, they encouraged hero operators to rally up to meet the police, further inflaming the situation. Hopefully an example is made of those who were arrested in doing so. Maybe a few of the false 911 callers as well.
You know what? I'm going to pull a random job from our computer that happened today. We'll just decide it's a 2nd Amendment issue and then discuss it from the point of view of "cops and government are bad so even if we are dead wrong, who cares?"
I mean after all, because of everything going on supposedly, even when wrong, it's just a "sign of the times" so who could fault us?
IF that doesn't speak to you as where I am coming from in regards to THIS situation, well I don't know what else to say other than legitimate victims already are paying for police reluctance and it will only get worse if NONSENSE like this happens more often.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There is nothing that can be done from the citizenry’s perspective except respond to all unconstitutional gun grabs. We cannot go in there and see if it’s legitimate or not because...
1. That’s not possible.
2. If we wait for the outcome, then the gun gran will have already taken place.
What the citizens need to understand is that there are no legitimate gun grabs. Even if the person is a prior criminal. The Founder’s never envisioned that if you ever got locked up prior, you would lose your right to bear arms. In their day, once a horse thief got caught and was convicted by his peers (Not the government) he was hung. If a man got drunk and beat his wife or neighbor, after he was released from jail, he was given his guns back. There was no such thing as felons losing their rights once released. That came afterwards by the government. Through time, we have gotten brainwashed to think it legitimate.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It’s always a 2A issue no matter who it is unless you believe that the founders wanted free men to have their 1st Amendment rights restored and all others except their 2nd upon release from jail or from hearsay testimony from one party.
The way I see it is the same way I see the law, innocent until proven guilty. We need to react every time there is a red flag order, pre, during or post. Until the red flag law is removed.
As far as if the guy is a wife beater or not, it is not our problem we are not there to deal with that.
As far as if the guy is a wife beater or not, it is not our problem we are not there to deal with that.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Exactly. We are there for the gun grab and nothing else since all gun grabs on free men are unconstitutional.
spat
.950 JDJ
The police need to regain the trust of the people.
That is all that can be done.
If they cannot or will not do that, then a lot of people are going to die, on both sides.
You can make whatever argument you want saying that the people who showed up were in the wrong, but it doesn't even matter if you are right or not.
They exist and that is the important part.
spat
.950 JDJ
How will you identify them ?
Or will you just round up everyone who expresses some reservations about the current course of the government and send them for "reeducation" like the Chinese do ?
If you're not willing to do that, your first clue to their identity is likely to be at a crime scene.
Again, this was not a Red Flag issue. Not the day of events that we have been speaking of.
This was about a guy that, through reports, threatened his wife with harm. Violated an Order of Protection, burglarized the home where she was staying at and made threatening statements to the Police.
This is farther reaching than a gun grab that so many keep talking about.
We have discussed some of the farther reaching things on this forum.
The issues that we have are absolutely not with the Police, they are players in this, but are not the true problem. The politicians and the people that elect these "elite" are the true enemies of our Republic.
If people only knew and really understand these laws that are being passed... Not just in New York, but across the Country.
So many have these blinders of hate and ignorance that they cannot see the true problems that we face.
I am wide awake to what is going on, I view things, not as someone in Law Enforcement, but as an everyday citizen.
This was about a guy that, through reports, threatened his wife with harm. Violated an Order of Protection, burglarized the home where she was staying at and made threatening statements to the Police.
This is farther reaching than a gun grab that so many keep talking about.
We have discussed some of the farther reaching things on this forum.
The issues that we have are absolutely not with the Police, they are players in this, but are not the true problem. The politicians and the people that elect these "elite" are the true enemies of our Republic.
If people only knew and really understand these laws that are being passed... Not just in New York, but across the Country.
So many have these blinders of hate and ignorance that they cannot see the true problems that we face.
I am wide awake to what is going on, I view things, not as someone in Law Enforcement, but as an everyday citizen.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Are you 100 percent positive on that? Because as it is now, the Putnam County Sheriff isn’t too positive about it with all the inconsistencies on why they were there. It’s changed 4 times already. They canceled their press conference and deleted their Facebook page. They have disparaged a group of LEO independent journalists as terrorists.
More inconsistencies points to Putnam County at this point.
I have said a few times now that the Police department(s) have screwed up a bit in regards to press releases.
I am not sure about anything. But, I keep reading more and more here that this was a Red Flag issue. it was not! This we know for a fact. All of his firearms had already been removed. That is fact.
Booth was subsequently arraigned on multiple charges related to incidents connected to a past domestic incident involving his wife. Booth was wanted on a felony warrant issued by Thomas Jacobellis charging him with second-degree burglary, a felony, and several misdemeanors, including criminal trespass, criminal contempt, aggravated harassment and petit larceny. Booth is not facing any charges in relation to the standoff. His arraignment was held at Carmel Town Justice Court.
This information is in court records. So, as of now, regardless of what the Police are spinning, this is fact.
spat
.950 JDJ
It *is* a red flag issue, because that's what the people who reacted believed they were responding to.
This couldn't have happened even just a couple of years ago. The introduction of red flag laws is a major reason it became possible.
Just like a self defense situation is based on what the defender *believed* to be the case, not what the reality was. Reaching for a wallet can get you shot if the officer thinks it's a gun, just like responding to a DV call can become a shitstorm if the public thinks it's a red flag.
There are a lot of reasonable things the police can do to prevent this, but I suspect they are going to take @Airborneguy 's approach and just try to crack down on the people responding. That will be like throwing gasoline on a fire.
Okay, I am finding out more and more that we have a Nation filled with experts.
Serious question, what should the Courts and the Police have done?
To think that up until these Red Flag laws came into existence, there were no guns being taken from people is beyond ridiculous. Do you really think that these new laws did anything different than what has been going on for years and years and years?
Any time there is an Order of Protection, guns are/were/could be removed.
I really don't think all that many really have a good understanding of laws and the court system. I am no expert in any of this. I read a lot, I study what is being proposed. I pay attention to the world around me and I have never lived in a bubble of ignorance.
This is not directed at anyone, just a general statement about the general public.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If that were indeed the case and all his firearms were removed days prior or one day prior (we don’t know), then why not declare it as a domestic violence from the get go when they decided to make statements to the media? I don’t buy that it was just a miscommunication issue in their part to the media. Had they said it was a DV, no one would have came
Instead they say it was a mentally unstable man that wanted to commit suicide along with other iterations of that same story along with shots fired heard from one lone officer.
Regardless whether it was a gun grab prior or at the time of this mess for a DV or a Red Flag, they are the same. Just different names. Both are gun grabs withouta trial and incarceration.
The accused’s story is the only one that makes sense now. The one where the magazine came into question and afterwards the wife was coerced to turn it into a DV for access into the home. Speculation of course but it’s the only story that fits given their early statements to the media. It fits exactly what the accused says along with the independent LEO journalists who more than likely got insider information to print their story which so happens to match the acuused’s story but were labeled terrorists by Putnam County for printing it.
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spat
.950 JDJ
For one, publically refuse to enforce the red flag orders (as some departments have done). This would not have happened in one of those counties.
Another would be to communicate better with the public what they are doing. They shouldn't have officers conducting a siege unless they already know why they are there. They certainly shouldn't be struggling to explain it a day later.
If they had explained what was going on (DV call, not a gun seizure) in near real time this could have been avoided. A couple of short posts to their Facebook page could have prevented the whole mess. You may argue that they don't have the resources to do that, or it's not their job, or whatever, but if they don't want more of this they better figure it out.
This thread is sad because it shows how much things have changed.
I'm not going to write a thesis on this, but just my rambling observations.
The right and law enforcement were natural allies for so long. Think back to what it was like September 15th 2001. There was so much love for police, first responders and law enforcement.
Look at what this thread has turned into.
What's changed in the past 18 years?
Politicians continue to incrementally screw us, and it's become apparent there are 2 sets of standards in this country, one for the elites and one for us peasants.
Look back Even to when the Patriot act was written at the time it was widely accepted as helping the police to do their jobs, and we weren't breaking the law so we had nothing to worry about. Remember that?
Then under the Obama administration we slowly began to see the government being weaponized to Target political opponents. Using the IRS to Target conservative committees, really?
Even when Obama tried to drum up as much anti police sentiment as he could, who stuck up for them? Those on the right. We put our faith and trust in the system.
We saw that the elites get special treatment and laws don't apply to them. We have so many politicians that should be in federal prison at the least. Yet, they continue to get rich, gain power, take our rights and they have no consequences.
We still begrudgingly try to comply with the safe act, the bump stock ban, red flag laws etc. The politicians passed this garbage but ultimately it fails if people aren't arrested or charged for it.
Who is out there ruining people's lives for daring to get caught with something that was legal and by stroke of a pen the next day they are felons for owning the same accessory or style of gun that was perfectly legal a day prior.
Police get special treatment and privileges too. How many times even in this forum do we see LEOs talking about their non safe act compliance personal rifles, standard capacity mags, threaded barrel etc. I don't blame them for taking what the law allows them to because I would if I was in their position but it's another divisive issue where we are 2nd class citizens.
We all know politicians are going to continue to pass more restrictive laws, and we can all see it's going to end in a train wreck. Maybe that's what the elites want in the end.
/Rant
I'm not going to write a thesis on this, but just my rambling observations.
The right and law enforcement were natural allies for so long. Think back to what it was like September 15th 2001. There was so much love for police, first responders and law enforcement.
Look at what this thread has turned into.
What's changed in the past 18 years?
Politicians continue to incrementally screw us, and it's become apparent there are 2 sets of standards in this country, one for the elites and one for us peasants.
Look back Even to when the Patriot act was written at the time it was widely accepted as helping the police to do their jobs, and we weren't breaking the law so we had nothing to worry about. Remember that?
Then under the Obama administration we slowly began to see the government being weaponized to Target political opponents. Using the IRS to Target conservative committees, really?
Even when Obama tried to drum up as much anti police sentiment as he could, who stuck up for them? Those on the right. We put our faith and trust in the system.
We saw that the elites get special treatment and laws don't apply to them. We have so many politicians that should be in federal prison at the least. Yet, they continue to get rich, gain power, take our rights and they have no consequences.
We still begrudgingly try to comply with the safe act, the bump stock ban, red flag laws etc. The politicians passed this garbage but ultimately it fails if people aren't arrested or charged for it.
Who is out there ruining people's lives for daring to get caught with something that was legal and by stroke of a pen the next day they are felons for owning the same accessory or style of gun that was perfectly legal a day prior.
Police get special treatment and privileges too. How many times even in this forum do we see LEOs talking about their non safe act compliance personal rifles, standard capacity mags, threaded barrel etc. I don't blame them for taking what the law allows them to because I would if I was in their position but it's another divisive issue where we are 2nd class citizens.
We all know politicians are going to continue to pass more restrictive laws, and we can all see it's going to end in a train wreck. Maybe that's what the elites want in the end.
/Rant
So, where was everyone in the 2A community years ago, prior to these Red Flag laws? You know, all these years and years and years that guns were being taken form the people.
It is almost like a bandwagon, everyone jumping on board due to a new name and a new law.
Nearly everything in these Red Flag laws have existed for decades. The court system has been taking guns away for a very long time. Please do not confuse this statement with support for this shit; I am just putting out the truth and the reality of what is and what has been.
It is almost like a bandwagon, everyone jumping on board due to a new name and a new law.
Nearly everything in these Red Flag laws have existed for decades. The court system has been taking guns away for a very long time. Please do not confuse this statement with support for this shit; I am just putting out the truth and the reality of what is and what has been.
THIS WAS NOT A RED FLAG INCIDENT!!!!
Repeat after me: THIS WASN’T A RED FLAG INCIDENT.
Can “they” at least define their mission beyond “we’ll decide what we want to call a 2nd Amendment job whenever we want and if you don’t like it, it’s your fault”?