Red Flag standoff in Mahopac

[Drinkthekoolaid]

It doesn't matter if it's "the right incident" or not.

Only that it's the right environment. This and the Bundy ranch incidents are evidence that we are fast approaching that environment.

You will be vilified by the government and in the media no matter how righteous or villainous the guy you choose to defend is, who it is is ultimately irrelevant.

You will not know if it was the right call or not until it's all over and the victors write the history. What would the history of the revolution or civil war have looked like if the other side had won ?

That's a fair counter point.

We are at the stage where information can flow and change more rapidly than it can be verified.



My biggest fear is I've thought about our current system and what the left is doing. They're extremely smart and cunning. They know damn well if all of a sudden a new law came down that (hypothetically) Jan 1st all semi auto gun sales are forbidden and all owner semi automatic guns must be surrendered to the government. Anyone caught with one faces a minimum mandatory jail term, and anyone who reports others with guns gets $5000 reward. They know if they announced that law we would immediately go all boogaloo on them.

But, they are doing exactly that. Just slower.

They are enacting piece by incremental piece of anti gun laws to get to that exact point. They are counting on the fact that if they do it gradually and not a significant step we will just grumble but ultimately just bend over and take it.

The problem vis determining when it's gone too far when there hasn't been a significant "trigger" event.

It's the age old parable of the frog in the pot of boiling water vs slowly heating water.

It seems as some have said in this thread that the tinder is already drying.

 

[Bob]

You're right, what we are seeing is a fundamental breakdown of a critical facet of society. The public trust in law enforcement.

That is the point. Not whether this guy was good or bad. The point is that (right or wrong) people no longer trust the government to do the right thing (and they have a million reasons not to).

You're also right that this is not "a good thing" generally. It is the first sign of a breakdown of society.

You know how law and order in "the hood" has broken down, because people there don't trust the police and those places have turned into shitholes because of it ? Well, you're seeing it spread, and for the same reasons.

What you don't seem to get is that the only people who can stop it are the government. There is nobody "in charge" of the public reaction. Nobody can put the brakes on it, it's not something you can reason your way out of, it's a force of nature.

I agree with the vast majority of this statement, with one significant exception.
There may not be people "in charge" of public reaction, but there are people who lead and 'organize' within the community who tend to sway public opinion and whip up frenzy. Agitators. Activists. Community organizers. Church leaders. Politicians. Sometimes they are well-intended, and sometimes they are not. And it's not just on "their" side. It happens on "our" side too.

Whether it adds to the discussion or not, I don't know. I'm just pointing out that the community dynamics are not nearly as simple as you make them out to be.

 

[Airborneguy]

It's cumulative.

Here's a few

The rest of those edited quotes make damned clear I was not referring to the perp here.

I’m out of this one. It’s pointless now.

Hopefully the victims here receive the justice they deserve despite those working against them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You bow out of every thread when the majority doesn’t agree with your points.

 

[Robin]

they keep pulling me back in youtube

 

[GOPerfect]

You bow out of every thread when the majority doesn’t agree with your points.

He'll, he is one of the only ones here making any sense.

People talking revolution due to an accused wife beater and burglar.

I understand the frustration with so many, but to get on board with someone accused of the crimes he is accused of is plain lunacy.

There are so many good causes to back; this one? I think not.

 

[Robin]

I don't see anyone backing him per se, As much as backing the folks that were backing him at the out set because of the poor information being put out. And not really backing them as much as trying to explain why it went viral for the reasons explained and re-explained ad nauseam and non sequitur rebuttals ad nauseam.
Still no explanation as to how this thing blew up. Not aware of anything.
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

He'll, he is one of the only ones here making any sense.

People talking revolution due to an accused wife beater and burglar.

I understand the frustration with so many, but to get on board with someone accused of the crimes he is accused of is plain lunacy.

There are so many good causes to back; this one? I think not.

Nobody is talking revolution due to this guy alone. You guys either miss the point or see it and ignore it anyway.

I know even you as a citizen first, see what is going on between the government, the police, and the people. We are sick of it. We are sick of the government passing laws and the police being the last checks and balances before all turns to shit, enforcing those laws against their oaths. Whether it’s a gun possession law, a magazine law, a red flag law, or a domestic violence law which is the same as a red flag law. The only difference being on who makes a statement. We are tired of it and slowly are starting to realize who actually makes these laws valid.

It doesn’t matter who it was. It could have been Charles Manson or Jesus Christ. I mean even now, people would still show up for Whiskey Warrior despite what may have or may have not happened.

 

[Airborneguy]

This thread has proven only that I may find myself using violence against very misguided dumbasses one day while affecting an arrest against someone who has wronged another citizen.

This doesn’t worry me so much as make me shake my head. I don’t care about their motives. Anyone who threatens me will get a response that hopefully overwhelms what they attempt and I won’t feel bad for them, whatever their stupidity causes them. Never have, never will.

My actions would be purely in response to them and never would’ve happened without their input. I’d sleep that night like a baby.

Let there no longer be doubt that this forum is full of perp supporters no different from the National Action Network.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Let there no longer be doubt that this forum is full of perp supporters no different from the National Action Network.

Many forums are like that. Even National ones. That’s got to tell you something.

Read this one at your leisure.

BREAKING NY man in standoff with Police over 30 round mags > General Discussion > AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

 

[spat]

This thread has proven only that I may find myself using violence against very misguided dumbasses one day while affecting an arrest against someone who has wronged another citizen.

This doesn’t worry me so much as make me shake my head. I don’t care about their motives. Anyone who threatens me will get a response that hopefully overwhelms what they attempt and I won’t feel bad for them, whatever their stupidity causes them. Never have, never will.

My actions would be purely in response to them and never would’ve happened without their input. I’d sleep that night like a baby.

Let there no longer be doubt that this forum is full of perp supporters no different from the National Action Network.

Are you familiar with the Boston Massacre ?

Boston Massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You are talking about being on the wrong side of that. Those were duly appointed law enforcement officers being harrassed by a mob that weren't happy with the laws they were enforcing.

It did not go well.

You *need* broad public support to do your job, if you lose it you will become an occupation force (like you are "in the hood") and not a police force.

Your job will become exponentially harder if not impossible. How would you like to be a police officer in Baghdad ?

Wouldn't it be better for everyone if we put the brakes on this insanity before it gets there ?

 

[Airborneguy]

Ok, so we’ll stop responding to criminal complaints from citizen victims then. Victims will have to figure it out themselves.

Since that’s exactly what happened here, this is clearly the only solution you’re suggesting.

 

[spat]

Ok, so we’ll stop responding to criminal complaints from citizen victims then. Victims will have to figure it out themselves.

Since that’s exactly what happened here, this is clearly the only solution you’re suggesting.

No, the solution has been presented multiple times and implemented by many departments.

20 departments in VA recently declared themselves 2A sanctuary counties and publicly refuse to enforce unconstitutional gun laws. This would not happen in any of those counties.

If people had been able to google this department and found a clear statement that they will not participate in red flag confiscation (even if this wasn't one, it doesn't matter) the people would have stayed home.

What is your solution ? Shoot or arrest the people protesting ? You think that's going to make things better ?

 

[GOPerfect]

No, the solution has been presented multiple times and implemented by many departments.

20 departments in VA recently declared themselves 2A sanctuary counties and publicly refuse to enforce unconstitutional gun laws. This would not happen in any of those counties.

If people had been able to google this department and found a clear statement that they will not participate in red flag confiscation (even if this wasn't one, it doesn't matter) the people would have stayed home.

What is your solution ? Shoot or arrest the people protesting ? You think that's going to make things better ?

Sorry @spat . You are wrong. First point of being incorrect... 35 Counties have declared themselves to be 2A sanctuary counties.

One other point I believe you are wrong on:

Woman calls the Police and says her husband is abusing her and threatened her with a gun. Regardless if the truth was told; the Police will in fact take his guns. I promise you this.



I am against these red flag laws. There are times, most of of the time, guns are removed from the home and there are no red flag laws to be had in places.

Some decent ideas have been posted here. Many are not at all realistic though.

 

[spat]

Sorry @spat . You are wrong. First point of being incorrect... 35 Counties have declared themselves to be 2A sanctuary counties.

One other point I believe you are wrong on:

Woman calls the Police and says her husband is abusing her and threatened her with a gun. Regardless if the truth was told; the Police will in fact take his guns. I promise you this.



I am against these red flag laws. There are times, most of of the time, guns are removed from the home and there are no red flag laws to be had in places.

Some decent ideas have been posted here. Many are not at all realistic though.

I stand corrected on the county count. I still think that is the best hope we have for this not getting ugly.

As for "non red flag" seizures, I think we should just drop the pretense that any seizure of guns from a free man isn't some form of a "red flag" law.

So you take the guys guns but leave him there to beat her to death ? What kind of solution is that ?

Either he is a threat and needs to be confined, or he isn't a threat and should keep his guns. There really aren't any other options.

All the people who have ever had their guns seized in these situations fall into 2 categories:

People who didn't subsequently attack their partners, and so could have been trusted with their guns.

And people who *did* subsequently attack their partners, and obviously seizing their guns was useless.

 

[Airborneguy]

No, the solution has been presented multiple times and implemented by many departments.

20 departments in VA recently declared themselves 2A sanctuary counties and publicly refuse to enforce unconstitutional gun laws. This would not happen in any of those counties.

If people had been able to google this department and found a clear statement that they will not participate in red flag confiscation (even if this wasn't one, it doesn't matter) the people would have stayed home.

What is your solution ? Shoot or arrest the people protesting ? You think that's going to make things better ?

Anyone whose response to a specific grievance is to inject themselves into unrelated matters should be dealt with appropriately to the situation, not catered to.

 

[spat]

Anyone whose response to a specific grievance is to inject themselves into unrelated matters should be dealt with appropriately to the situation, not catered to.

If it were just a few people you would be right.

When it represents a significant % of the population their concerns should be addressed.

When it's so many people that 1 call from each from one out of every 10 of them shuts down your 911 center, you should have addressed it a long time ago.

So, if you were one of the officers on duty in Boston on March 5, 1770, what would you have done ?

 

[Airborneguy]

So, if you were one of the officers on duty in Boston on March 5, 1770, what would you have done ?

You know I don’t play the game where an incident involving foreign troops shooting civilians due to thrown snowballs is compared as equal to an incident where yahoos attempted to stop the police from arresting a person facing multiple charges based on sworn complaints from two citizen victims.

 

[spat]

You know I don’t play the game where an incident involving foreign troops shooting civilians due to thrown snowballs is compared as equal to an incident where yahoos attempted to stop the police from arresting a person facing multiple charges based on sworn complaints from two citizen victims.

They weren't foreign troops.

They were British troops enforcing British law on British subjects in a British colony. This was years before the revolution.

They were *the* legitimate law enforcement agency in that jurisdiction.

I suspect a similar incident would be considered assault on a police officer now.

I also wonder if it was just "snowballs".

The closest modern incident might be the Kent state shooting in the 70's.

I would also like to know what these people who showed up did that was so bad ? I haven't heard anything about them preventing the arrest, or attempting to.

Just wanting to be there as a witness to make sure nothing unfortunate happens doesn't strike me as a terrible thing.

 

[Cleck]

He'll, he is one of the only ones here making any sense.

People talking revolution due to an accused wife beater and burglar.

I understand the frustration with so many, but to get on board with someone accused of the crimes he is accused of is plain lunacy.

There are so many good causes to back; this one? I think not.

I've been away for a little bit, so I come on and I see this thread has 15 pages...I'm not reading that.

I somehow got put in a moderator position on a FB NY 2A page and watched this unfold as it happened, it was insane. This dude live streaming/tweeting/sharing as things are going down, the comments getting worse and worse from the members on the page, very anti-LEO at one point, some cheering for "militias" coming to support, some saying cops are "jamming" comms and arresting supporters, it was fucking nuts. GoFundMe's start popping up to pay for this guy's day in court.

Then police official statements start popping up and then "disappearing", people tightening their tin foil and saying FB is deleting responses and the media is covering things up. Then I see one and I take an SS of it, keep it for later. Find out the guy wasn't arrested for what they were "called there" for in the first place, but there were other charges. More conspiracy posts from the members, someone says the GoFundMe disappeared, more comments.

Finally morning comes and the dust settles, more news comes out, more and more posts starting to turn the narrative. I shared the screenshot I took, it says what the guy was actually arrested for, and I'm called names and a sheep by people. The truth continues to unravel though, and it finally comes out that in a nutshell, the guy's an asshole and made it all up and suddenly the anti-leo people aren't talking now, they've got nothing to say. The GoFundMe has now been turned from a law defense fund into a donation to a 2A group. Myself and 3 other people in this group that have been making middle-of-the-road statements the entire time are most likely right - the guy tried to drum up anti-LEO/anti-govt feelings (among people who would normally call others snowflakes for having feelings) by saying "the Red Coats are coming" and making this out to be a gun/red flag bust all over a single 30rd mag and a bad friend who blew him in. He was arrested for being an asshole previously, and tried to cover it up. It worked for a bit. Then some of these people get it and they say it, "This guy is a piece of shit who exploited your fears and your unwillingness to look shit up and all he did was give gun owners a bad name and he's not someone we need in our cause."

It was nuts to watch the roller coaster for 12hrs or so.

 

[nortatoga]

I've been away for a little bit, so I come on and I see this thread has 15 pages...I'm not reading that.

I somehow got put in a moderator position on a FB NY 2A page and watched this unfold as it happened, it was insane. This dude live streaming/tweeting/sharing as things are going down, the comments getting worse and worse from the members on the page, very anti-LEO at one point, some cheering for "militias" coming to support, some saying cops are "jamming" comms and arresting supporters, it was fucking nuts. GoFundMe's start popping up to pay for this guy's day in court.

Then police official statements start popping up and then "disappearing", people tightening their tin foil and saying FB is deleting responses and the media is covering things up. Then I see one and I take an SS of it, keep it for later. Find out the guy wasn't arrested for what they were "called there" for in the first place, but there were other charges. More conspiracy posts from the members, someone says the GoFundMe disappeared, more comments.

Finally morning comes and the dust settles, more news comes out, more and more posts starting to turn the narrative. I shared the screenshot I took, it says what the guy was actually arrested for, and I'm called names and a sheep by people. The truth continues to unravel though, and it finally comes out that in a nutshell, the guy's an asshole and made it all up and suddenly the anti-leo people aren't talking now, they've got nothing to say. The GoFundMe has now been turned from a law defense fund into a donation to a 2A group. Myself and 3 other people in this group that have been making middle-of-the-road statements the entire time are most likely right - the guy tried to drum up anti-LEO/anti-govt feelings (among people who would normally call others snowflakes for having feelings) by saying "the Red Coats are coming" and making this out to be a gun/red flag bust all over a single 30rd mag and a bad friend who blew him in. He was arrested for being an asshole previously, and tried to cover it up. It worked for a bit. Then some of these people get it and they say it, "This guy is a piece of shit who exploited your fears and your unwillingness to look shit up and all he did was give gun owners a bad name and he's not someone we need in our cause."

It was nuts to watch the roller coaster for 12hrs or so.

 

[Robin]

So much consternation.
Obi Wan Robin

 

[Airborneguy]

Yeah. I was looking at it from a slightly different angle based on what you said about that seemed to have a general "all perps are scumbags" vibe.

I just realized that literally two posts above this one of yours I made it extremely clear that this man deserves all the rights our system affords and that I in no way was suggesting otherwise.

 

[Airborneguy]

I've been away for a little bit, so I come on and I see this thread has 15 pages...I'm not reading that.

I somehow got put in a moderator position on a FB NY 2A page and watched this unfold as it happened, it was insane. This dude live streaming/tweeting/sharing as things are going down, the comments getting worse and worse from the members on the page, very anti-LEO at one point, some cheering for "militias" coming to support, some saying cops are "jamming" comms and arresting supporters, it was fucking nuts. GoFundMe's start popping up to pay for this guy's day in court.

Then police official statements start popping up and then "disappearing", people tightening their tin foil and saying FB is deleting responses and the media is covering things up. Then I see one and I take an SS of it, keep it for later. Find out the guy wasn't arrested for what they were "called there" for in the first place, but there were other charges. More conspiracy posts from the members, someone says the GoFundMe disappeared, more comments.

Finally morning comes and the dust settles, more news comes out, more and more posts starting to turn the narrative. I shared the screenshot I took, it says what the guy was actually arrested for, and I'm called names and a sheep by people. The truth continues to unravel though, and it finally comes out that in a nutshell, the guy's an asshole and made it all up and suddenly the anti-leo people aren't talking now, they've got nothing to say. The GoFundMe has now been turned from a law defense fund into a donation to a 2A group. Myself and 3 other people in this group that have been making middle-of-the-road statements the entire time are most likely right - the guy tried to drum up anti-LEO/anti-govt feelings (among people who would normally call others snowflakes for having feelings) by saying "the Red Coats are coming" and making this out to be a gun/red flag bust all over a single 30rd mag and a bad friend who blew him in. He was arrested for being an asshole previously, and tried to cover it up. It worked for a bit. Then some of these people get it and they say it, "This guy is a piece of shit who exploited your fears and your unwillingness to look shit up and all he did was give gun owners a bad name and he's not someone we need in our cause."

It was nuts to watch the roller coaster for 12hrs or so.

I’m being lectured here that none of that matters because angry mobs get to decide everything, regardless of their “facts” basis in reality.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I've been away for a little bit, so I come on and I see this thread has 15 pages...I'm not reading that.

I somehow got put in a moderator position on a FB NY 2A page and watched this unfold as it happened, it was insane. This dude live streaming/tweeting/sharing as things are going down, the comments getting worse and worse from the members on the page, very anti-LEO at one point, some cheering for "militias" coming to support, some saying cops are "jamming" comms and arresting supporters, it was fucking nuts. GoFundMe's start popping up to pay for this guy's day in court.

Then police official statements start popping up and then "disappearing", people tightening their tin foil and saying FB is deleting responses and the media is covering things up. Then I see one and I take an SS of it, keep it for later. Find out the guy wasn't arrested for what they were "called there" for in the first place, but there were other charges. More conspiracy posts from the members, someone says the GoFundMe disappeared, more comments.

Finally morning comes and the dust settles, more news comes out, more and more posts starting to turn the narrative. I shared the screenshot I took, it says what the guy was actually arrested for, and I'm called names and a sheep by people. The truth continues to unravel though, and it finally comes out that in a nutshell, the guy's an asshole and made it all up and suddenly the anti-leo people aren't talking now, they've got nothing to say. The GoFundMe has now been turned from a law defense fund into a donation to a 2A group. Myself and 3 other people in this group that have been making middle-of-the-road statements the entire time are most likely right - the guy tried to drum up anti-LEO/anti-govt feelings (among people who would normally call others snowflakes for having feelings) by saying "the Red Coats are coming" and making this out to be a gun/red flag bust all over a single 30rd mag and a bad friend who blew him in. He was arrested for being an asshole previously, and tried to cover it up. It worked for a bit. Then some of these people get it and they say it, "This guy is a piece of shit who exploited your fears and your unwillingness to look shit up and all he did was give gun owners a bad name and he's not someone we need in our cause."

It was nuts to watch the roller coaster for 12hrs or so.

Pretty much Cliff's notes of this thread as well. It pretty much mirrors your other observations

 

[spat]

I’m being lectured here that none of that matters because angry mobs get to decide everything, regardless of their “facts” basis in reality.

They do not get to "decide everything".

You are merely being warned to ignore them at your peril.

The environment that created them is real, and not something that you can arrest your way out of.

 

[Cooolone]

Mob mentality was experimented with in the 60's... The results can be argued.

Today, it (mob mentality) is effected by Social Media and the majority of the masses accepting what they see or read online as being factual. Instantaneous reaction based upon emotional infliction of a gut based decision is pretty good shit! It'll work wonders in the real world, especially when SHTF!

Like computers... Garbage in = Garbage out! If your Intel is shit, so will be the results!

I dislike constant comparative to the Bundy Ranch scenario as something that will happen again or even here in NY, which is laughable. The Obama administration had a lot to do with that entire event. Besides, the feds are all busy lately with Custer's last stand (Trump), either you're with or against him. The entire Gov't would have a holiday and not know what to do should this BS evaporate overnight. Simply amazing. But I learned a long time ago, not to jerk my knees, lol.

Assess, Plan, Execute

Upon assessment, if anyone thinks a simple red flag law event is a catalyst to provoke a revolution, they're confused!

We, as a society, are light years away from that spark. "ASSESS" properly and you'll see it too. Despite malcontent rumbling on either side, (or sides) for many arbitrary issues... The necessary ingredients are lacking for a revolution. Nothing short of suspending the Constitution could possibly incite the necessary civic response in mass revolt by our contemporary folk/citizens. Period!

Everything else is just noise.

Carry on...

 

[Robin]

AaaahYeeeees! Now I see.
Robin

 

[96coal449]

I've been away myself for a bit. 24 inches of snow will do that to some. Catching up, I have noticed several posts referencing this to the American Revolution. I see it differently. I compare this much more to the Civil War. This is definitely a nation divided. Even the states are divided ....again.
There is division in all levels. From gov. right done to this forum. Outstanding job (society in general), we have done in taken for granted the gift of the US Constitution. We desperately need one another (We the People), to sort this mess out.

 

[Grimscale]

Question:

Is an unConstitutional Law still unConstitutional if it is applied to a "bad guy"?