Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Well, I'm screwed!
Robin
US Catholic Bishops to Vote on Denying Biden Communion
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Robin
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
God is a CPA?!?!?! Fucked again!
Robin
spat
.950 JDJ
Then, again, how does your morality derive from the other 7 billion humans ?Do you just invent things in your own mind?
We have tons of immoral laws on the books. Many with their very roots in religion.
I'm not the one claiming the font of moral authority comes from the collective.
Did I say my morality derives from 7 billion other people?
Or did I say I am accountable to 7 billion other people?
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You said the same platitudes that we have been hearing and regurgitating over and over and over again. Do you have a pulpit at home?
Robin
Robin
spat
.950 JDJ
You were asked what morality derives from, and you responded that you are accountable to 7 billion people.
And no, you are not remotely accountable to 7 billion people. Only a few hundred million tops.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
Not against Atheists if you don't believe fine! But have you ever seen a thread started by an Atheist? And that thread get attacked by those who believe? Just like Liberals their opinion is all that matters!!
I wasn't asked that, but we'll go with that.
It was derived from a multitude of different factors, including a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions and realizing that many other people inhabit this world and if we are going to survive to and share space we are going to have to live cooperatively.
You must have seen many, going by your little pie chart earlier.
Or wait, maybe they are almost never started by atheists but instead or a a response to the religious trying to shove crap down everyone's throats.
I gotcha. Similar occurred when I added a "Let's talk about religion" thread.
spat
.950 JDJ
That is an explanation for why it's in your self interest to be "good".
That is not morality.
Morality is what you should do even when it is *not* in your self interest.
For instance my morality says slavery is wrong. Always was and always will be. Your "we have to cooperate and share space" to thrive was just plain wrong. In fact, historically the most brutal and amoral societies have been the most successful.
The US is the exception to that.
But isn't not just "my self interest." If that were the case I could go start killing people and hording resources for myself. That's morally incorrect however because I am accountable to the people I would kill, their families, and in the end myself when in return people would try and kill me for various reasons.
It's not in my self interest to support alcohol. I had a problem with it and I, without any spiritual help, over came it. It would be morally wrong for me, however, to tell others what they can and can't put in their own bodies as I do not own that person nor do I have any right to tell them how to live.
I appreciate that you feel slavery is wrong. I do as well. We are now both, demonstrably, more moral than the God of the bible.
What is your yardstick for "successfulness" of these brutal and amoral societies?
The US, founded the very principal of freedom of religion and no state sponsored religion, is certainly an exception. The founders knew from the start to keep religion out of it, having just escaped England to have such freedom.
FS1040
.45 acp
When you put it in meme format, it definitely has more weight.
spat
.950 JDJ
Again you claim you are accountable to the rest of humanity without explaining how.
The vast majority of slave holders throughout history were never held accountable. So, how does that make it immoral ?
Morality can *never* be about what you are held accountable for, that just leads to some bizarre "as long as you can get away with it, it's OK" notion.
Kim Jong Un will never be held accountable for *anything* he does within the borders of NK. Does that mean everything he does is moral ?
Accountability is a terrible standard for morality.
I would say a moral person is someone who does "the right thing" even when they *know* they aren't accountable for it.
People who only do "the right thing" because they are afraid of the consequences are not acting out of a sense of moral duty at all.
spat
.950 JDJ
You said morality derives from your accountability.
That is a terrible way to derive morality, it leads to all sorts of objectively terrible behavior being acceptable, like slavery.
First of all, you say slavery is bad without providing reason. I have reason. I am accountable to others in the real world. My actions affect others poorly and that has tangible consequences. How are you determining slavery is bad?
If I don't like what someone is doing, yet they aren't harming anyone, and I tell them they can't. That is immoral. I have imposed my will upon another. That is wrong as I am accountable to that person and those around him.
How did you determine KJU was immoral?
I totally agree with your notion "those that do the right thing because they are afraid of the consequences" are terrible. Hence I could never be religious. They think if it was proven there was no God then they would go around raping and killing people. Terrifying and grossly immoral.
I like how you quoted me not saying that.
I have morality because I am accountable to others. This includes ones self by the way. Where do we learn that from? Experiences, up bringing, society, natural instincts, many many factors.
And its demonstrable that objective mortality is superior to religious morality. Hence why people pick and choose from the Bible. I don't think that women are inferior to men (the opposite knowing me
) and I know that in spite of what the Bible or Quran says.
spat
.950 JDJ
How does "I am accountable to others in the real world" lead to "slavery is bad" ?
Slavers are typically never held accountable. Throughout human history it has been a core industry, not something that people were ever held accountable for.
No, I haven't discussed what I consider the source of morality. I have simply concentrated on behaviors that we all agree are immoral, and why your "source" doesn't exclude them.
Also, while a fair number of religious people follow the moral dictates of their religion due to the fear of repercussions in the afterlife, most (and I would say all the good ones) do it merely because they consider it gods will. They would be "good people" even if there weren't threatened judgement in the afterlife.
In fact, as you have pointed out, many of them don't actually have any reason at all to fear consequences in the afterlife.
The major religions don't say you will burn in hell for living an amoral life. They say you can live the worst possible life, but as long as you truly accept the savior in the end all will be forgiven.
The source of morality in those religions is very simple, gods will. "God wants you to live a good life, and you don't want to disappoint god do you ?"
They have a logical and consistent basis for their system of morality. It is a very simple one, and that lends it self well to consistency and the logic is unimpeachable. While I consider a more complex basis for morality that is independent to a deity, I admire the simplicity and elegance of theirs.
spat
.950 JDJ
You literally said the basis for objective morality is your accountability to "7 billion people".I like how you quoted me not saying that.
I have morality because I am accountable to others. This includes ones self by the way. Where do we learn that from? Experiences, up bringing, society, natural instincts, many many factors.
And its demonstrable that objective mortality is superior to religious morality. Hence why people pick and choose from the Bible. I don't think that women are inferior to men (the opposite knowing me
Are you seriously going to deny saying what you just posted in this very thread ?
spat
.950 JDJ
It is not, and you haven't demonstrated any such thing.
"objective morality" is just as easily manipulated into evil as the words of any prophet.
Just look at what the left is selling as "moral imperatives" these days.
Many base Morality here:
Well, the first four do not really deal with Human-to-Human or Human-to-Animal interacitions. And even Jesus is reported to have misgivings concerning number 4.
The rest can be condensed into a single word: CRUELITY
To explain, Cruelty is wrong.
Commandments 5 thru 10 all concern cruelty to others.
Personally, I agree that Cruelty is the worst, and perhaps the only sin.
Well, the first four do not really deal with Human-to-Human or Human-to-Animal interacitions. And even Jesus is reported to have misgivings concerning number 4.
The rest can be condensed into a single word: CRUELITY
To explain, Cruelty is wrong.
Commandments 5 thru 10 all concern cruelty to others.
Personally, I agree that Cruelty is the worst, and perhaps the only sin.
Many base Morality here:
Well, the first four do not really deal with Human-to-Human or Human-to-Animal interacitions. And even Jesus is reported to have misgivings concerning number 4.
The rest can be condensed into a single word: CRUELITY
To explain, Cruelty is wrong.
Commandments 5 thru 10 all concern cruelty to others.
Personally, I agree that Cruelty is the worst, and perhaps the only sin.
Whose definition of Cruelty?
Would you like me to keep you as a slave?
But, obviously, it does. Yours does too. Because we are more moral than any religious morality.
No. So many believe that, that they use it in their arguments. And boy does it mess people up. People that leave their awful religions are plagued by the fear that their decisions, that they would consider moral and most rational people would, will lead them to eternity in fire and brimstone.
Not wanting to disappoint God is why people fly planes into buildings.
Not sure if this was meant as sarcasm? Logical and consistent? Even by their own standards that's not true. Murder, robbery, lying...all condemned and commanded in the bible.
Yes.
Accountable to != derived from.
You presented a self defeating argument here. First of it's demonstrable that objective morality is superior as you won't be able to provide a single country where religious morality is the law of the land that is what any rational person would consider doing better than the US, where we made it clear we are not and can not be a religiously founded nation.
Then you claim that objective morality can be manipulated. That's nonsensical. It's like saying the alphabet is racist because people can make bad words out of the letters. What you mean is that people can claim they are doing something moral, and it in fact not be true. Like if I told you to kill your only son, we both know that would be immoral. No outside source needed. We'd be able to look at any "moral imperative" of the left and judge that as well. Would we all get the same answer? No, but I'd wager it would be a lot closer than you'd think.
Many base Morality here:
Well, the first four do not really deal with Human-to-Human or Human-to-Animal interacitions. And even Jesus is reported to have misgivings concerning number 4.
The rest can be condensed into a single word: CRUELITY
To explain, Cruelty is wrong.
Commandments 5 thru 10 all concern cruelty to others.
Personally, I agree that Cruelty is the worst, and perhaps the only sin.
If there is one "rule" that I would somewhat agree with it's the "do unto others" thing that was stolen by Christianity, and in fact a thing way before organized religion.
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