spat
.700 Nitro Express
Evidence suggests he opposed the decision, and followed direct orders under protest when they were issued.
Border Tensions Escalate as Asian Giants India and China Battle for the Himalayas 7/25/21
- Thread starter livingston
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For all involved this was the best way to record his departure.
Another whitewashed WWII event is Japan's unconditinal surrender. They surrendered on condition Hirohito would remain an emperor. That's not unconditional surrender.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
It's true, politically that was best face to put on it, But is there any reason to doubt it was accurate ?
Or is this just a case of "sounds too good to be true" ?
As for Hirohito, he was emperor in name only, I doubt anyone on our side cared what they called him anyway. Would we have done anything differently if that *wasn't* a condition ?
Both official stories on their face are laughable, not much evidence is needed. Hirohito was the most powerful man in Japan. In Japanese culture the emperor was a God like figure. He was in on every Japanese decision from aggression and atrocities against their neighbors to surrender. Everything they did was with his approval. The fact that this was even spun to make him look innocent, goes to show how much whitewashing was going on.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
He was before the surrender.
Afterwards he was a figurehead is all. It was probably a wise decision to leave him in place regardless of the conditions of the surrender.
That certainly went a long way toward pacifying the populace.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
In what way would they disagree that he was just a figurehead after the surrender ?
His actions before the surrender have nothing to do with his power afterward.
I would put Mosinitis on ignore, except for the excellent counter points made by others who challenge him.
Please keep it civil. If you cannot do that then step away from the keyboard and take a breather.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
The 14th Army began its invasion with a landing on Batan Island (not to be confused with Bataan Peninsula), 120 miles (190 km) off the north coast of Luzon, on December 8, 1941, by selected naval infantry units. Landings on Camiguin Island and at Vigan, Aparri, and Gonzaga in northern Luzon followed two days later.
Early on the morning of December 12, the Japanese landed 2,500 men of the 16th Division at Legazpi on southern Luzon, 150 miles (240 km) from the nearest American and Philippine forces. The attack on Mindanao followed on December 19, using elements of the 16th Army temporarily attached to the invasion force to permit the 14th Army to use all its troops on Luzon.
The Americans were still fighting fires at Pearl harbor when the Japanese landed in the Philippines.
Meanwhile, Admiral Thomas C. Hart withdrew most of his U.S. Asiatic Fleet from Philippine waters following Japanese air strikes that inflicted heavy damage on U.S. naval facilities at Cavite on December 10. Only submarines were left to contest Japanese naval superiority, and the commanders of these, conditioned by prewar doctrine that held the fleet submarine to be a scouting vessel more vulnerable to air and anti-submarine attack than it actually was, proved unequal to the task.
In a book A Different Kind of Victory: A Biography of Admiral Thomas C. Hart (Naval Institute Press, 1981), James Leutze wrote:
"He had 27 subs submerged in Manila Bay,...[51] it was Washington, not the Asiatic Fleet Commander that directed the fleet to withdraw from Manila.[52]... Hart was directed by Washington to send US Navy surface forces and submarines southeast toward Australia.[53]... Douglas MacArthur and Henry Stimson (United States Secretary of War) feuding with Admiral Hart over lack of US Navy submarine action. MacArthur asked Admiral Hart: "What in the world is the matter with your submarines?".[54].. MacArthur complained that Hart's inactivity allowed Japan's navy freedom of action.[55]... According to Stimson, MacArthur felt that Hart's ships and submarines were ineffectual, but because Admiral Hart had lost his courage. Admiral Hart's reaction to MacArthur's brickbats: "He (MacArthur) is inclined to cut my throat and perhaps the Navy in general."[56]"
Looks like Washington already wrote off the Philippines before the fight even started.
For several weeks, the Japanese, deterred by heavy losses and reduced to a single brigade, conducted siege operations while waiting refitting and reinforcement. Both armies engaged in patrols and limited local attacks. Because of the worsening Allied position in the Asia-Pacific region, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt ordered MacArthur to relocate to Australia, as Supreme Allied Commander South West Pacific Area. (MacArthur's famous speech regarding the Philippines, in which he said "I came out of Bataan and I shall return" was made at Terowie , South Australia on March 20.) Wainwright officially assumed control of what was now termed United States Forces in the Philippines (USFIP) on March 23. During this period, elements of the U.S. Philippine Division were shifted to assist in the defense of other sectors.
The Americans knew they could not reinforce the islands because of the naval and air superiority of the Japanese. The airfieds were lost the Navy pulled back. The Philippines were lost before the fight ever started. They tried to make a good show of it, but if those forces could not be reinforced or supplied they were fucked. And MacArthur knew it. Even he couldn't save them. The writing was on the wall, and everyone knew it . MacArthur could have done nothing more to change the outcome.
Sure they tried to save face, but losing the commander in chief of the Pacific fleet for no exchange of value was a no- brainer.
Early on the morning of December 12, the Japanese landed 2,500 men of the 16th Division at Legazpi on southern Luzon, 150 miles (240 km) from the nearest American and Philippine forces. The attack on Mindanao followed on December 19, using elements of the 16th Army temporarily attached to the invasion force to permit the 14th Army to use all its troops on Luzon.
The Americans were still fighting fires at Pearl harbor when the Japanese landed in the Philippines.
Meanwhile, Admiral Thomas C. Hart withdrew most of his U.S. Asiatic Fleet from Philippine waters following Japanese air strikes that inflicted heavy damage on U.S. naval facilities at Cavite on December 10. Only submarines were left to contest Japanese naval superiority, and the commanders of these, conditioned by prewar doctrine that held the fleet submarine to be a scouting vessel more vulnerable to air and anti-submarine attack than it actually was, proved unequal to the task.
In a book A Different Kind of Victory: A Biography of Admiral Thomas C. Hart (Naval Institute Press, 1981), James Leutze wrote:
"He had 27 subs submerged in Manila Bay,...[51] it was Washington, not the Asiatic Fleet Commander that directed the fleet to withdraw from Manila.[52]... Hart was directed by Washington to send US Navy surface forces and submarines southeast toward Australia.[53]... Douglas MacArthur and Henry Stimson (United States Secretary of War) feuding with Admiral Hart over lack of US Navy submarine action. MacArthur asked Admiral Hart: "What in the world is the matter with your submarines?".[54].. MacArthur complained that Hart's inactivity allowed Japan's navy freedom of action.[55]... According to Stimson, MacArthur felt that Hart's ships and submarines were ineffectual, but because Admiral Hart had lost his courage. Admiral Hart's reaction to MacArthur's brickbats: "He (MacArthur) is inclined to cut my throat and perhaps the Navy in general."[56]"
Looks like Washington already wrote off the Philippines before the fight even started.
For several weeks, the Japanese, deterred by heavy losses and reduced to a single brigade, conducted siege operations while waiting refitting and reinforcement. Both armies engaged in patrols and limited local attacks. Because of the worsening Allied position in the Asia-Pacific region, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt ordered MacArthur to relocate to Australia, as Supreme Allied Commander South West Pacific Area. (MacArthur's famous speech regarding the Philippines, in which he said "I came out of Bataan and I shall return" was made at Terowie , South Australia on March 20.) Wainwright officially assumed control of what was now termed United States Forces in the Philippines (USFIP) on March 23. During this period, elements of the U.S. Philippine Division were shifted to assist in the defense of other sectors.
The Americans knew they could not reinforce the islands because of the naval and air superiority of the Japanese. The airfieds were lost the Navy pulled back. The Philippines were lost before the fight ever started. They tried to make a good show of it, but if those forces could not be reinforced or supplied they were fucked. And MacArthur knew it. Even he couldn't save them. The writing was on the wall, and everyone knew it . MacArthur could have done nothing more to change the outcome.
Sure they tried to save face, but losing the commander in chief of the Pacific fleet for no exchange of value was a no- brainer.
You are missing the point. Yes, Hirohito was no longer a threat, but fake-historians absolved him of any responsibility for Japanese aggression and atrocities. This is a disgrace. If you google this, half of what comes up supports fake narrative. I understand how embarrassing this must be for the U.S., but this is a part of history.
Please do. I am not interested in the opinions of people whose entire view of the world centers around pissy internal fight between R's and D's. For me this ideological musterbation is not the entire world view.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
Yeah, that would be me, more specifically. Take a break ds, I apologize.
Robin
(Pssst, hey India......... pre-emptive nuclear strike.)
Does India have MIRVs? Can we "accidentally lose" some nukes in India, nudge nudge, wink wink?
Does India have MIRVs? Can we "accidentally lose" some nukes in India, nudge nudge, wink wink?
Commander of the Pacific fleet was Admiral Nimitz, not MacArthur. There were plenty of other generals and admirals in U.S. military. In most armies it's considered inappropriate for the commander to escape and tell his men to fight to the end.
Stalin remained in Moscow, when the city was expected to fall and German tanks were just miles away. Somehow it worked, I doubt the city would hold out if he left.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
And that has what to do with the Japanese surrender, or MacArthur leaving the Philippines ?
Also, I don't remember anyone in the US absolving him of anything. The atrocities committed by the Japanese are well known, and were well publicized.
It was also well known that *before* the surrender he was an absolute monarch, so he was responsible for all of it.
They do say that some of the generals did not want him to surrender, but that's kind of a minor point compared to everything else that went on.
They made mainstream hollywood movies about the Japanese behavior in WWII. That's not exactly "covering it up".
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The fight isn't between the R's and the D's. describing it as such would be like describing the civil war as West Virginia's seceding from Virginia.
It is a fight between collectivism and individualism and it is global. R and D are just major players, and I think they're both on the same side.
It shows how the history is whitewashed. It's well known, but fake historians still spin it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
What "fake historians" ?
Are you talking about some no name guys in Japan or something ?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I miss qouted, "" as Supreme Allied Commander South West Pacific Area.""
Well, your correct , their not supposed to do that. Im sure if you asked the survivors on Batten and Corregidor they would agree with you. But the big picture is that He was to valuable to the overall war effort to lose. He knew the Japanese, He was studying them for years. He was the go to guy if a war with Japan ever started. You dont want to lose your queen on the opening move. The country needed him . The US was in bad shape.
I disagree that this was cowardice in the face of the enemy. There was a job to do. Nobody was better qualified at the moment than him .
Ill say this though, The US had gotten lucky more times than is believable in the pacific. I cant even recall the flukes of fates that went in favor of the US.
Google it.
This is just one example:
There has been considerable debate among historians about the role Hirohito played during Japan’s militaristic period from the early 1930s to 1945, the end of World War II. Many have asserted that he had grave misgivings about war with the United States and was opposed to Japan’s alliance with Germany and Italy (the Axis Powers) but that he was constrained to go along with the militarists who increasingly came to dominate the armed forces and the government. Other historians have claimed that Hirohito was actively involved in the planning of Japan’s expansionist policies from the Japanese invasion of Manchuria (now northeastern China) in 1931 to the end of the war. Still others posit that the truth lies somewhere between those two interpretations.
There has been considerable debate among historians about the role Hirohito played during Japan’s militaristic period from the early 1930s to 1945, the end of World War II. Many have asserted that he had grave misgivings about war with the United States and was opposed to Japan’s alliance with Germany and Italy (the Axis Powers) but that he was constrained to go along with the militarists who increasingly came to dominate the armed forces and the government. Other historians have claimed that Hirohito was actively involved in the planning of Japan’s expansionist policies from the Japanese invasion of Manchuria (now northeastern China) in 1931 to the end of the war. Still others posit that the truth lies somewhere between those two interpretations.
Hirohito | Biography, Full Name, World War II, Surrender, & Facts
Hirohito, emperor of Japan from 1926 until his death in 1989. He was the longest-reigning monarch in Japan’s history. He reigned during World War II and its aftermath, during which he repudiated the quasi-divine status of Japanese emperors and oversaw the transition of his country into a...
www.britannica.com
spat
.700 Nitro Express
That says he thought getting into a war with the US was a bad idea. It obviously was.This is just one example:
There has been considerable debate among historians about the role Hirohito played during Japan’s militaristic period from the early 1930s to 1945, the end of World War II. Many have asserted that he had grave misgivings about war with the United States and was opposed to Japan’s alliance with Germany and Italy (the Axis Powers) but that he was constrained to go along with the militarists who increasingly came to dominate the armed forces and the government. Other historians have claimed that Hirohito was actively involved in the planning of Japan’s expansionist policies from the Japanese invasion of Manchuria (now northeastern China) in 1931 to the end of the war. Still others posit that the truth lies somewhere between those two interpretations.
Hirohito | Biography, Full Name, World War II, Surrender, & Facts
Hirohito, emperor of Japan from 1926 until his death in 1989. He was the longest-reigning monarch in Japan’s history. He reigned during World War II and its aftermath, during which he repudiated the quasi-divine status of Japanese emperors and oversaw the transition of his country into a...www.britannica.com
Why would you doubt that there was some strong discussion about *that* ?
It doesn’t say anything about him opposing the atrocities, or "whitewashing" anything.
Just says he was concerned they might be biting off more than they could chew. Turns out that was right.
There is no controversy. He was the leader of Japan and bares full responcibility for everything that happened.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Off on a tangent,
My Money is on India. They have some high end stuff .
My Money is on India. They have some high end stuff .
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
And Gurkhas.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
I'm not the one claiming anything else.
You're the one suggesting that there's some vast conspiracy to deny that fact. If there is I haven't seen it.
I didn't ask for your permission, Moseyboy, for anything.
Lets review. I said I don't care about your opinion or if you read mine or not. Permission wasn't in there.