2 Men charged with murder of unarmed man Ahmaud Arbery in GA

[Blimey]

Here's the strategy I suspect defense will use: The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War

In Georgia, the law states that a private person may arrest someone if a crime is committed in his presence or “within his immediate knowledge.”...In the killing of Mr. Arbery, someone called 911 beforehand to say that a man was inside a house under construction. If that man was Mr. Arbery, and he was there without permission but stole nothing, then he could have been charged with trespassing, a misdemeanor, said Lawrence J. Zimmerman, the president of the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. That means, Mr. Zimmerman said, the men who went after him would not have been authorized to give chase...
Force can only be used to prevent a violent felony, Mr. Zimmerman said, adding, “What is not lawful is, you can’t detain somebody and then use force.”
But a person making a citizen’s arrest who is then attacked could try to claim self-defense, he said, as the McMichaels have claimed — although it would not necessarily be successful.

If they can establish that he did in fact trespass, they may have legal justification to actually try and stop him. You can also see in the video that he attacked them, although having a gun pointed at you is itself a violent act (maybe?).. Also that dailymail article earlier claims that on the same day they tried twice prior to the cell phone vid to stop him, so he was unable to get away and probably thought no longer running was his best bet.

Pretty sure nobody is happy with what happened. Best thing to do in such a scenario is call 911 as they did and leave it at that. Follow the person if you think they did something really nasty. The confrontation with guns was very dimwitted. For the record I do think they will be convicted of something. The prosecution will have to be careful of course and not try and get them for premeditated or something.

 

[Blimey]

I do not think you watched the whole video. He clearly explains why it isn’t trespass. It says that you have to do so for an unlawful purpose. The mere act of going in isn’t enough. It has to be for an unlawful purpose. And because he didn’t steal anything, there was no unlawful purpose.

Also, if there was a sign, that isn’t enough under Georgia law. You have to be told and then choose to remain there. Colin explains this in detail.

And finally in order to stop someone and place him or her under citizen’s arrest, the one you arrest would have to commit a felony in your presence. No felony was committed. At most it would be a misdemeanor if he stole a hammer.

You clearly didn’t watch the video. You skimmed it.

The video is long. Go watch what he says between 4:50 an 5:00. Now tell me the exact minute mark he contradicts himself and I'll watch that part.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Here's the strategy I suspect defense will use: The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War



If they can establish that he did in fact trespass, they may have legal justification to actually try and stop him. You can also see in the video that he attacked them, although having a gun pointed at you is itself a violent act (maybe?).. Also that dailymail article earlier claims that on the same day they tried twice prior to the cell phone vid to stop him, so he was unable to get away and probably thought no longer running was his best bet.

Pretty sure nobody is happy with what happened. Best thing to do in such a scenario is call 911 as they did and leave it at that. Follow the person if you think they did something really nasty. The confrontation with guns was very dimwitted. For the record I do think they will be convicted of something. The prosecution will have to be careful of course and not try and get them for premeditated or something.

Incorrect. It has to be felony.

 

[Blimey]

Incorrect. It has to be felony.

I don't think you quite understand what J Zimmerman said there. He said force is allowed only to stop a violent felony. But these guys can claim they tried to stop and talk to him and then claim self-defense. That's exactly what I quoted.

 

[camper4lyfe]

If I were jogging or walking by a house under construction, I might totally go in just to see what it is like.

Out of curiousity, only.

I might stop in to see if the shitter’s plumbed in if I had to go bad enough.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The video is long. Go watch what he says between 4:50 an 5:00. Now tell me the exact minute mark he contradicts himself and I'll watch that part.

I watched the whole thing. Afterwards I read the laws he cited. You have to be told not to be there. A sign is not enough. And regardless, it has to be a felony committed in your presence. Trespass is a misdemeanor.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I don't think you quite understand what J Zimmerman said there. He said force is allowed only to stop a violent felony. But these guys can claim they tried to stop and talk to him and then claim self-defense. That's exactly what I quoted.

That’s unlawful detainment which he explained as well. I think you should watch the video. Front to back.

 

[Blimey]

I watched the whole thing. Afterwards I read the laws he cited. You have to be told not to be there. A sign is not enough. And regardless, it has to be a felony committed in your presence. Trespass is a misdemeanor.

4:48-5:58 "...as far as we know there were no signs saying to keep out or no trespassing. There were no gates or fences. If any of these things existed at the time Arbery went into the house, then yeah he trespassed."

Father and son 'had earlier confrontation with Ahmaud Arbery'

Gregory McMichael, 64, and son Travis McMichael, 34, were charged with murder after Arbery was shot dead on February 23 in Brunswick, Georgia.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Current owner, Larry English Jr., bought it in June 2016 for $120,000 and has built the majority of the structure which has a sign posted outside, warning: 'Trespassers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'

Are we finished here?

 

[Blimey]

I watched the whole thing. Afterwards I read the laws he cited. You have to be told not to be there. A sign is not enough. And regardless, it has to be a felony committed in your presence. Trespass is a misdemeanor.

Bolded. If you can either:

Cite the addition to Georgian law 16-7-21 part 2(b) (Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-7-21 | FindLaw) that further clarifies that "notice from the owner" must be verbal

or

Cite case law that has set a precedent that notice must be verbal and no trespassing signs have no weight of law then I will stand corrected. Please be specific.

 

[Blimey]

That’s unlawful detainment which he explained as well. I think you should watch the video. Front to back.

Could be. These guys will need a spectacular lawyer and a lot of luck to get out of this one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

4:48-5:58 "...as far as we know there were no signs saying to keep out or no trespassing. There were no gates or fences. If any of these things existed at the time Arbery went into the house, then yeah he trespassed."

Father and son 'had earlier confrontation with Ahmaud Arbery'

Gregory McMichael, 64, and son Travis McMichael, 34, were charged with murder after Arbery was shot dead on February 23 in Brunswick, Georgia.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Current owner, Larry English Jr., bought it in June 2016 for $120,000 and has built the majority of the structure which has a sign posted outside, warning: 'Trespassers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'

Are we finished here?

Yes we are. In Georgia a sign isn’t enough.

Trespassing Laws & Signs For All Fifty States | Signs.com

Read about the trespassing laws in your state in our comprehensive guide to trespassing laws and signs in all fifty states.

www.signs.com

And furthermore, it isn’t a felony to be stopped for a citizen’s arrest.

 

[livingston]

The problem I have with this whole thing is .Did ..these folks that chased this fellow down know he committed a crime ? ... I know a lot of people that work construction... I have been on job sites just looking for them ,, Gone into several buildings until I found them ... ... If someone saw me from the street enter a building how do they know if I had permission or not... From the builder or owner ...

 

[Blimey]

Yes we are. In Georgia a sign isn’t enough.

Okay so Noir is actually incorrect in his understanding of Georgia law. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Blimey]

The problem I have with this whole thing is .Did ..these folks that chased this fellow down know he committed a crime ? ... I know a lot of people that work construction... I have been on job sites just looking for them ,, Gone into several buildings until I found them ... ... If someone saw me from the street enter a building how do they know if I had permission or not... From the builder or owner ...

Based on that last dailymail article it looks like they tried to have words with him two weeks earlier, but for some reason despite that confrontation he again went onto the property the day he was shot. I have no doubt they thought he had broken the law, and the 911 call they made supports that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Unfortunately thinking someone broke a law is not someone breaking a law. Bottom line, it has to be a felony. If you do not know what a felony is, don’t play police officer. It could go very badly for you.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I do not think you watched the whole video. He clearly explains why it isn’t trespass. It says that you have to do so for an unlawful purpose. The mere act of going in isn’t enough. It has to be for an unlawful purpose. And because he didn’t steal anything, there was no unlawful purpose.

Also, if there was a sign, that isn’t enough under Georgia law. You have to be told and then choose to remain there. Colin explains this in detail.

And finally in order to stop someone and place him or her under citizen’s arrest, the one you arrest would have to commit a felony in your presence. No felony was committed. At most it would be a misdemeanor if he stole a hammer or if a sign held water.

You clearly didn’t watch the video. You skimmed it.

I think you said it best..

Sometimes people don’t wanna see the truth because it will destroy their opinion. Saving face is more important than learning.

 

[Blimey]

Doesnt meet state law for trespassing

Aww, but he did trespass didn't he, Ed? I mean, I have a video you can watch if you don't believe me. It's the very one you kept asking me to watch. It's by a lawyer. Unless you think you know more about the law than a lawyer.

Here's what really happened: You and marine are a bit tiffed after digging in your heels on the merits of georgia law that I actually found evidence he broke it--according to the very same standards you insisted in many posts I hold myself to. So here we are.

 

[Blimey]

Unfortunately thinking someone broke a law is not someone breaking a law. Bottom line, it has to be a felony. If you do not know what a felony is, don’t play police officer. It could go very badly for you.

Did you see this post? I wanted to be sure you didn't miss it, thanks! Also you are aware there are misdemeanors, right? Not felonies, but still breaking the law?

2 Men charged with murder of unarmed man Ahmaud Arbery in GA

Here's the strategy I suspect defense will use: The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War In Georgia, the law states that a private person may arrest someone if a crime is committed in his presence or “within his immediate knowledge.”...In the killing of Mr...

nygunforum.com

 

[Marine Cpl]

Did you see this post? I wanted to be sure you didn't miss it, thanks! Also you are aware there are misdemeanors, right? Not felonies, but still breaking the law?

2 Men charged with murder of unarmed man Ahmaud Arbery in GA

Here's the strategy I suspect defense will use: The Citizen’s Arrest Law Cited in Arbery’s Killing Dates Back to the Civil War In Georgia, the law states that a private person may arrest someone if a crime is committed in his presence or “within his immediate knowledge.”...In the killing of Mr...

nygunforum.com

I’m goggling to see if there is case law. But regardless, even if he is guilty of trespass, it isn’t a felony. Key word felony. No felony. No citizen’s arrest.

 

[Blimey]

I’m goggling to see if there is case law. But regardless, even if he is guilty of trespass, it isn’t a felony. Key word felony. No felony. No citizen’s arrest.

Nobody is arguing these guys had legal justification. I think we established they were legally screwed on the first page

 

[Marine Cpl]

Nobody is arguing these guys had legal justification. I think we established they were legally screwed on the first page

Did you read the statement from the owner Larry English? He says that he saw him on camera and did not call the police.

 

[Blimey]

Did you read the statement from the owner Larry English? He says that he saw him on camera and did not call the police.

I did not see that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And I’m not seeing anything about any signs. I’m googling but can’t find them.

 

[Blimey]

And I’m not seeing anything about any signs. I’m googling but can’t find them.

haha I looked also. I found one guy who said they hold no weight of law and another article from some lawsuit that said they did.

I'm sure we can indeed all agree he did not commit a felony trespass and I think their only legal defense is to claim they just wanted to talk with him--which is perfectly legal. And that he then attacked them and they engaged in self-defense. However, this won't hold up in court because you can't really talk to somebody with a shotgun. And if he had previously eluded them twice on the same evening it looks like they were trying to contain, not talk, to him which as was pointed out is not legal unless he had committed a felony.

I don't think anybody has explained how the guy with the cell was there. It seems like they saw him, he ran off, they got in their cars and just started patrolling the hood to try and get him at that point.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Don’t kill me for the source and fuck Fredo but the owner here is talking with his own words. No mention of signs. He saw the video and that was it. No call to police.

 

[GOPerfect]

I think it is funny, as usual.

I re read most of the posts on this thread. I did not see any of them that said support for the accused. Not one post is siding with the "Shooters". Many are only pointing out facts and their OPINIONS of what they see.

100 different people can watch the exact same video and all see something different. That does not make them wrong nor does it sound support for those that are charged with a crime.


I also think it is funny how the media is trying their best to influence public opinion through photos. The two arrested are shown in the worst possible pictures and the "victim is shown all dressed in a tux with clean shaved hair. The tux photo in years old. Makes little difference to me, but pictures tell a story that is not always true. Just funny the influence has through pictures and words.

For me, I do not care necessarily about any of these three. None really at all, I am interested in this case a bit if only to watch and read the reactions of people.

 

[Chevusa]

Don’t kill me for the source and fuck Fredo but the owner here is talking with his own words. No mention of signs. He saw the video and that was it. No call to police.

The wife/girlfriend that was beaten and says he did nothing wrong and/or she deserved it doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed. Totally irrelevant. Just another opinion.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The wife/girlfriend that was beaten and says he did nothing wrong and/or she deserved it doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed. Totally irrelevant. Just another opinion.

Actually not irrelevant. In Georgia you have to be informed that you that you can’t enter. The owner didn’t have a sign up, fence, nothing. He even says that when he saw the video after being alerted to it by his app, he did not call the police as nothing was taken.

2) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant that such entry is forbidden; or

 

[Acer-m14]

there is not one no trespassing sign here on the Rail Road tracks from Groveland to Mt. Morris .. its a good 8 mile shooting range .. who wants to go shooting ??

 

[spat]

Unfortunately thinking someone broke a law is not someone breaking a law. Bottom line, it has to be a felony. If you do not know what a felony is, don’t play police officer. It could go very badly for you.

It needs to be a felony to conduct a citizens arrest.

It is almost universally a bad idea to try to conduct a citizens arrest no matter what you think they did.

It does not need to be anything to try to have a conversation.