22LR For Self Defense (Seriously)

[Edwardteach72]

Selection bias.

You'll find a lot more video's of people tripping over their own feet than you will of them walking normally down the street too. But that says more about what people will upload a video of than what happens more commonly in the world.

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So by your logic if I can find 3 videos of people staying and continuing to fight instead of running away, then how many gun fights have to happen per day for that to equal 0.01%

 

[Edwardteach72]

Look I clearly explained it was my opinion I wasn't claiming any type of scientific study or real world reports I wasn't trying to mislead anyone.

And I was talking to someone else and never quoted or tagged you again but yet here you are ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[spat]

So by your logic if I can find 3 videos of people staying and continuing to fight instead of running away, then how many gun fights have to happen per day for that to equal 0.01%

By my logic you can make no determination about how frequently something happens based on the number of videos you find.

If you can find your 3 videos, you have proven it happened at least 3 times. That is all.

You have proven nothing about how often the opposite happens.

So it could be 3 fight and 3 million run, or 3 million fight and 3 run. You don’t know.

 

[Edwardteach72]

By my logic you can make no determination about how frequently something happens based on the number of videos you find.

If you can find your 3 videos, you have proven it happened at least 3 times. That is all.

You have proven nothing about how often the opposite happens.

So it could be 3 fight and 3 million run, or 3 million fight and 3 run. You don’t know.

Exactly. Hence why going around spouting off 99.91% of the time a criminal will run if getting shot at

 

[spat]

Exactly. Hence why going around spouting off 99.91% of the time a criminal will run if getting shot at

Well, you can't use a count of videos on youtube as evidence to support that position anyway.

Without some actual relevant data it's essentially a guess.

Could be a good guess though.

 

[MothMan]

.22 would not be my 1st choice. But then I’ve always been a “love the one your with” kinda guy.

 

[fresch]

A 22, in newyorkastan we must throw our wallet and keys at the person and run first.
Then when they catch you, you can stick the 22 under its chin/temple/eye/neck and cut loose.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Well, you can't use a count of videos on youtube as evidence to support that position anyway.

Without some actual relevant data it's essentially a guess.

Could be a good guess though.

I didn't say it was my position I just said that I've seen plenty of people getting shot at not run away.

Now if those plenty of videos account for .01% of people's reaction to being shot at, well fuck thats some pretty astronomical odds.


But then again I wasn't the one making any claims

 

[spat]

I didn't say it was my position I just said that I've seen plenty of people getting shot at not run away.

Now if those plenty of videos account for .01% of people's reaction to being shot at, well fuck thats some pretty astronomical odds.


But then again I wasn't the one making any claims

Look at the number of train crash videos vs the number of "train driving down the tracks uneventfully" videos.

If you try to draw any conclusions from that you'll think trains are rolling death traps and wonder why anyone would ever use one.

Selection bias says "gunfight videos are more interesting than people running and hiding videos". So that's why you get a lot more videos.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Look at the number of train crash videos vs the number of "train driving down the tracks uneventfully" videos.

If you try to draw any conclusions from that you'll think trains are rolling death traps and wonder why anyone would ever use one.

Selection bias says "gunfight videos are more interesting than people running and hiding videos". So that's why you get a lot more videos.

I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions, just trying to find out what evidence he had that only 0.01% of bad guys won't run away if someone shots at them

 

[spat]

I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions, just trying to find out what evidence he had that only 0.01% of bad guys won't run away if someone shots at them

I don't think there was evidence per se, just a sort of "seems obvious" sort of thing.

I don't have any evidence that 99.9+% of people will pull their hand away if they set on a hot stove either, but it seems like a pretty reasonable assertion to me.

People don't like getting shot at. Virtually everyone will react with a "fight or flight" response as soon as they perceive the danger, it's a response hardwired into practically everything that breathes.

The vast majority of people are unequipped to put up any significant fight if they are being shot at so they will run.

Even those of us who *are* equipped mentally and physically to fight back will initially run (to seek cover at least).

I think it's quite reasonable to assume 99+% of people will run from gunfire.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I think it's quite reasonable to assume 99+% of people will run from gunfire.

And this is why some people don't train or practice..

Oh well this one guy said if I just get a shot off 99.99% of the time the bad guy will just leave me alone.


Good portion of the gun community have this idea that their gun is a magic blanket that just having with them makes them safe and invincible and lazy

 

[spat]

And this is why some people don't train or practice..

Oh well this one guy said if I just get a shot off 99.99% of the time the bad guy will just leave me alone.


Good portion of the gun community have this idea that their gun is a magic blanket that just having with them makes them safe and invincible and lazy

Just like the people who OC "as a deterrent".

Sure, both groups may be right most of the time.

But most of us will never need the gun at all, we carry and train for the rare occasion when the opposite is true.

A spare tire just wastes space and hurts your gas mileage most of the time. Most of the vehicles I've owned I *never* used the spare.

But I still carry one and know how to use it.

A lot of people don't anymore.

 

[Cooolone]

There's a lot of Dunning Kruger in this thread!

Assumptions on what will happen, whether it be the assailant running or fighting, or whether or not the .22lr would end the threat!

I'll throw in some commentary and yes, my own Dunning Kruger!

First is, I don't have expectations of the result of an encounter. Ever!!! What I do have is preparation and knowledge that can be applied if an unfortunate life/death event should take place. That preparation and knowledge may allow for a favorable result in my consideration!

Second, the .22lr statistically is proficient at death, and largely due to its use, statistically... What does that mean? Well, people DO expire when shot by a .22lr.

Does a .22lr end a threat? Ummmmmm... Not really!

Riddle me this...? Considering MOST handgun use encounters occur within 10' we can naturally exclude any consideration for "distance performance" and quite frankly, shooting someone at 50' away is going to be hard, not impossible, but hard to constitute the threat is still there. Anyways, if I'm in an encounter at such close range, what do I want as the most effective consideration when deciding which load may be appropriate? For me, it's that "One Shot Stop" power... Or what's usually associated with the Ft.lb "FORCE" calculation of a given ballistic trait of a round used.

This isn't going to be very high with a .22, just sayin!

So sure, you could poke a shit load of holes in someone, but you'll have to wait until they bleed out for the STOP to become effective. Of course this discounts the lucky strike to a vital organ, nerve center or spinal hit... But for the most part, you may just as well protect yourself with a pen/pencil as the effect would be very, very similar.

Back to One Shot Stop and the FORCE required to accomplish that... Well, the best round that did this was the .357 Magnum round used! Statical performance measured and recorded by the LE use over decades! Especially at close range! Again, all just considered on the basis or caliber performance. .44 mag, .45, etc, having similar stopping power but possibly due to it's widespread use by State Troopers throughout the land, the .357 Mag was and is a significant round with OSS Power. Problem then became the limitation of the revolver load capacity... And the widespread use of semiautomatic handguns by criminals... What to do? What to do... Innovation created rounds for SA handguns like to .40, 10mm and .357Sig to answer that question. There is a reason for those rounds being selected by security teams and others. And if the .22lr was so cherished and effective, well it would be used then wouldn't it? Last thought of course would be penetration... But not in regard to flesh! But barriers to the slug penetrating flesh. Whether it be a Carhartt jacket with layers beneath (winter), or a car door, glass windshields, etc. Again, not a great thing to be between the .22 and target for it to work well. 9mm isn't far behind, it sucks too! Lmao, that would be another thread though

So anyways, I always say carry the best round you shoot reliably well. But that consideration with all other things being equal, must include consideration for effectiveness on OSS power, period!

Hypothetical situation (I hate them but will use it here).

You encounter a life thread, it's 3' in front of you, you comply until there's a distraction which allows you to draw and defend yourself by discharging your carry...

With a .22lr you empty your magazine, and 5 out of 10 rounds are on target... Center mass!

With a .357 Magnum, you empty your revolver and 2 out of 6 rounds are on target... Center mass!

Honestly, which do you believe would have the most profound effect on the target?

If you believe it's the .22lr, you're seriously mistaken! And that could have a profound effect upon the result in any encounter, heaven forbid, you may experience.

Reality is a funny thing, and Dunning Kruger is real. Don't fall victim to it. Look at things as they are, and what they are, not what you think they are or want them to be!

Best Regards

 

[Deplorable Me]

Two words: shot placement.

Put a cap in your friends knee and the gang bangers chasing you will get him first.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

First to get this

to shoot out of this

and recoil and sound like this

wins!

 

[Edwardteach72]

But most of us will never need the gun at all, we carry and train for the rare occasion when the opposite is true.

Wait why should I train, I was just told that 99.99% of bad guys will just run away if I shoot my gun

 

[Steal2B]

For OSS, I contend handguns of any caliber are realistically still a compromise.

In reference to Dunning-Kruger, as a conservative I endorse the Dunning-Kruger Business model of, if you can pull it off, buying a Liberal for what they are actually worth, and selling them for what a Liberal thinks they are worth.

 

[Robin]

I have zero problem with someone choosing a .22 for self defense. Know thy self!
Robin

 

[pshift]

Guys, it's not a choice. It's an alternative. I did not expect but appreciate the vibrant 'discussions' on this topic.

 

[spat]

Wait why should I train, I was just told that 99.99% of bad guys will just run away if I shoot my gun

Because you might be dealing with Mr. %0.01 ?

 

[spat]

First to get this
View attachment 112731
to shoot out of this
View attachment 112732
and recoil and sound like this
View attachment 112733
wins!

I'll take the plasma rifle in the 40W range.

We'll see who gets theirs first.

 

[Cooolone]

For OSS, I contend handguns of any caliber are realistically still a compromise.

This is very true! But it's difficult to carry a SBR .308 to get groceries! Lmao!

 

[Edwardteach72]

This is very true! But it's difficult to carry a SBR .308 to get groceries! Lmao!

Get a good sling

 

[Cooolone]

Hahahaha

 

[Varmint]

These will get your attention

View attachment 112699

We use these on the hogs...1 shot in the brain pan...they break wind and drop... a 357 blows their brains all over the barn walls

 

[holdover]

During the Bosnian war the 22, were popular sniper rifles. probably because thats what they had, So you adapt the tactics to suit your weapons .

It wouldnt be a first choice , but it can be used effectively if you had to. Slap a binary trigger on one, cut down the barrel , and you pretty much have a close quarters submachine gun . pick up a good Anshultz and you can hit 2-4 MOA at 200 yards and be pretty quiet about it.

 

[nyhunter]

Guys, you do know that on the Cable TV show Swamp People they kill 500-800lb alligators with a single 22LR in the head/brain, right? CCI/Federal even had an alligator Hunter (Troy) on their Mini Mag 22LR 300-round bulk pack for 4-5 years (Choot'em!). Do you think a large alligator's head & skull is softer or less vulnerable than a human's? Look at all that thick skin/armor they have protecting their skull. Mini Mag is a high-velocity round (1200-1260fps), not even hyper-velocity (1400-1600fps) and it ends them on the spot with a shot to the fuse box.

I personally think a .22LR (and certainly 22 Mag) is fine for self-defense if that's the person's choice, as long as you practice a lot and aim for the head, throat or heart to end it quickly. My wife carries her Ruger SR22 pistol everywhere and can put all 10 rounds (Mini Mag) center mass in the head of a silhouette at 20-25ft shooting off-hand. She can even do it after a quick draw or retrieving the pistol from her hand bag quickly. I tried to get her to carry a small 38 revolver, .380, and 9mm but she doesn't like the recoil and the feel of those calibers, and also prefers the 10 rounds over 5 or 6 of the revolver or 7-8 of small semi-autos. I feel sorry for anyone that might threaten her enough to make her use her SR22. They are not going to have a brain left and probably no eyes either. Can you stop an attacker with a .22? Heck yeah if you choose good shot placement (to the head) over random shots to the body. It only takes 5 foot-pounds of energy (FPE) to penetrate the human skull and a .22LR High/Hyper vel. has 130 to 200 FPE. The human body is a lot more fragile than you think...

A lot of people say "bigger is better", and I am sure it is true most of the time, but not necessary. You don't need .22, .223 or 12ga to put down a Groundhog like most people recommend. I put them down all the time with a single .177 or .22 pellet (with adult/hunting air rifles) in the brain at 25-30 yards (and up to 40yds), sometimes delivering as little as 10 FPE on impact, or 50 FPE depending on the airgun I use (not talking about big bore airguns here, only .117, 22 and .25). Same with raccoon & possum. It's all about shot placement and knowing your abilities and limitations, as well as the anatomy of your prey (or attacker). Hundreds maybe thousands of coyotes are taken every year with small bore airguns (mostly head shots) in backyards and farms that have 1/4 and 1/3rd the power of a .22LR Mini Mag at the muzzle (and even less down range). Just visit an airgun forum.

 

[Defilade]

 

[dsdmmat]

22LR for defense? I agree with @MothMan not my first choice but any gun is better than no gun.