Calling ( and for the ancients like me) paging Dr @m1_ping or @US RIFLE M1A . Is this standard laze fair regarding such suits?
2A Lawsuits and their progress we have here in NY
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
Aether
22lr
Actually, I am optimistic as the court is not dismissing the filing out-of-hand. The court is, instead directing the plaintiffs to get the filing correct. This may mean that the court does not want to waste its’ time hearting a flawed filing by the plaintiffs. READ the Frey filing, it is pretty near perfect, IMHO.
US RIFLE M1A
.45 acp
We are all watching these cases so closely that we (unless we are lawyers) are seeing details of the legal system that we have never seen before. Usually we are going about our business, and casually hear something about a court decision and think 'oh, that's good' or 'oh that sucks' and go about life.
In this situation, we are seeing all the details that go into almost all cases, but these specific 2A cases hold very well defined ramifications for all of us. Kind of the difference between simply having a friend as opposed to having a friend AND ALSO watching live surgery on that friend.
This is just a guess, but I think the reason Judge Suddaby is taking some time is that the judge is considering each plaintiff and the specific situation faced by each plaintiff. For example...
Instead of just tossing the law wholesale, he is doing something much more specific such as... OK, Joe EMT can carry at any time he is working OR on-call as an EMT. Jane Hiker can use any park in New York and stop for gas as long as she is either hiking or thinking about hiking. Sam the Minister can designate any congregant as security as long as that congregant has a pistol license...
Much more difficult to appeal that way, because the state will have to show that each plaintiff's violation of 2A rights has historic justification which we know it does not. It would force the state to get down into the weeds and say such absurd things such as 'in 1791, battlefield surgeons were not allowed to carry..' or 'in 1791, naturalists were disarmed' or 'In 1791 ministers could not carry in their own church...'
But I am not a lawyer and this is just a hunch.
As far as Frey, the judge knows the over-riding guidance is Bruen, and cannot dismiss with prejudice. Dismissal without prejudice is simply a pause in the case to amend filings. Totally routine.
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livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
Folks
wysl the 2nd amendment show 10.05-22
42 minute mark podcast.
Paloma Capanna attorney gives her opinion at the 42 minute mark on this case
www.wysl1040.com
wysl the 2nd amendment show 10.05-22
42 minute mark podcast.
Paloma Capanna attorney gives her opinion at the 42 minute mark on this case
Listen To Our Podcast - WYSL NewsPower 1040
www.wysl1040.com
US RIFLE M1A
.45 acp
Listened to the interview portion of the podcast, and the concern for the rights of each individual plaintiff against retribution is powerful. Specifically mentioned in the hearing.
Not too different from my comment above. Make it about the plaintiffs specifically. This also gives plaintiffs powerful standing.
Not too different from my comment above. Make it about the plaintiffs specifically. This also gives plaintiffs powerful standing.
gunpoliticsny
6.5 Creedmoor
livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
We need to remain positive folks .... The powers that be can pass laws at the drop of a hat damaging our rights .. While it takes us years to fight them
I posted a you tube years ago it was in a government session in California.
One of the elected officials declared that we know this law was illegal as all get out ... But it would take 10 years to wind its way through the courts. ... It was worth the 10 yeas of it being on the books before it was overturned.
] This is how they think folks . They can stomp on our rights with impunity .. With no repercussions
I posted a you tube years ago it was in a government session in California.
One of the elected officials declared that we know this law was illegal as all get out ... But it would take 10 years to wind its way through the courts. ... It was worth the 10 yeas of it being on the books before it was overturned.
] This is how they think folks . They can stomp on our rights with impunity .. With no repercussions
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
Also it’s not their money they use to make it wind through the courts. In this case said asshole should be liable for that cost out of his own pocket, but that will never happen. That’s the problem and that’s the difference and why it is so aggravating.
m1_ping
9mm
This isn't anything to worry about. Courts and judges have specific requirements for how documents are filed, summons are issued, and motions are made. When any of these are done incorrectly the court rejects it and instructs how to fix and try again. I see this kind of thing in most of the cases we are watching.
Disclaimer, as always. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy that reads a lot about federal courts because I want to know what's going on with our 2A rights.
RBean
.40 S&W
You have the Federal Rules, then the Local Rules, then the Judge's Rules and the ECF Clerks rules. So it is easy to run afoul of one of these rules. Usually not fatal to the case, but causes delays. Especially easy if you are concerned with the substance of the case and don't pay meticulous attention to all the rules. Also some times they are ambiguous and contradictory.
The plaintiffs in Frey case have certainly put themselves at risk. The cases, at least prior to Bruen, said a state could not prohibit carry but could regulate it. If you could carry open, didn't have a right to carry concealed. If you could carry concealed, had no right to carry open. It would not surprise me if they are arrested by the end of next week. God bless them. They are going where I would fear to go.
The plaintiffs in Frey case have certainly put themselves at risk. The cases, at least prior to Bruen, said a state could not prohibit carry but could regulate it. If you could carry open, didn't have a right to carry concealed. If you could carry concealed, had no right to carry open. It would not surprise me if they are arrested by the end of next week. God bless them. They are going where I would fear to go.
RBean
.40 S&W
Judge Suddaby has already given his opinion on the constitutional status of the law. He knows this case will be appealed to the Second Circuit and then the Supreme Court. He and his law clerks are carefully crafting the decision to hold up on appeal. I think we will have a decision by the end of Friday.
maverick52
.223 Rem
Do you think NYS would appeal to the supremes? I think they’re afraid if that, right?
That_FNG
.308 Win
I think nys is pompous and arrogant, which will be there downfall. Look at how they reacted when antonyuk vs bruen was dismissed. Rome is burning and they are too full of themselves to see it.
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
They put them selves at risk of what? Being arrested for what? They are questioning the constitutionality of open carry being a felony. In PA its 100% legal to carry open without a permit, the state requires a permit to carry concealed. With Bruen and applying strict scrutiny the one or the other standard may no longer hold water. The more cases the better.
Hey @RBean , it is great having you here! As always, thanks for the insight.
livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
Paloma said it could go all the way in a previous interview.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Then make enough noise that she goes so far that people will no longer accept it.
You do not back down on this, ever.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Kinda happened here around 1776.
Kinda happened in France in 1789 too. That last one didn't work out too well for the tyrants.
US RIFLE M1A
.45 acp
A member here is advocating backing down due to increased punishment from the state.
With due respect, I say... bullshit.
In another thread I posted that the scandal with Bruen is not as it seems. It has nothing to do with what they say it has to do with, which is an HR issue. Hochul is treating it as if Bruen has bodies stored in his office freezer.
Someone here suggested it was a larger power play, perhaps it is.
My opinion is that the lawsuit situation as we have been following has at least something to do with it. Cracks are beginning to show. Hochul by herself is not a powerful person with any significant good-old-boy contacts. She is a nobody who has attained a position of power through no qualities of her own, and has no idea how to either use that power effectively or how not to make political waves..
These lawsuits are having the effect of shining too much light on her and by extension, those who stand to gain by issues way more important than the CCIA.
The people who truly stand to gain in this state ($$$) don't give a shit about restricting concealed carry. She has made some downstate legislators happy, but in New York, except for the three people in the smoky room, the legislature is a rubber stamp. The real power is in awarding contracts and giving state money to 'improvement zones' and such. These people do not like controversy of any sort.
I could be completely wrong, we will probably never know. What I do know is that the heat needs to be turned up to 11 on all Second Amendment issues no matter the geographic location of the infringement or the details of such. In other words, we should be fighting not for concealed carry in the Adirondacks but for open carry in Times Square.
EDIT TO ADD: If I were a fiction writer, I would have a scene in the novel in which Bruen was approached back-channel by the ($$$) oligarchs and told to take some hits as far as the lawsuits were concerned, to get the 2A community to feel they won a few and back down a bit. When you are they type of person who deals with mostly clean money mixed in with some dirty money, as NY is famous for, you DO NOT NEED controversy. This is the way business is done in NY, and Hochul, besides being an autocrat (rule by one person) is also an idealogue who has recruited the wrong people (downstate politicians) as friends. Bruen approached her and told her to calm down on 2A issues, and she is lashing out and wants his scalp same as if he outright betrayed her. (The above paragraph is just the rambling of someone who taught creative writing)
With due respect, I say... bullshit.
In another thread I posted that the scandal with Bruen is not as it seems. It has nothing to do with what they say it has to do with, which is an HR issue. Hochul is treating it as if Bruen has bodies stored in his office freezer.
Someone here suggested it was a larger power play, perhaps it is.
My opinion is that the lawsuit situation as we have been following has at least something to do with it. Cracks are beginning to show. Hochul by herself is not a powerful person with any significant good-old-boy contacts. She is a nobody who has attained a position of power through no qualities of her own, and has no idea how to either use that power effectively or how not to make political waves..
These lawsuits are having the effect of shining too much light on her and by extension, those who stand to gain by issues way more important than the CCIA.
The people who truly stand to gain in this state ($$$) don't give a shit about restricting concealed carry. She has made some downstate legislators happy, but in New York, except for the three people in the smoky room, the legislature is a rubber stamp. The real power is in awarding contracts and giving state money to 'improvement zones' and such. These people do not like controversy of any sort.
I could be completely wrong, we will probably never know. What I do know is that the heat needs to be turned up to 11 on all Second Amendment issues no matter the geographic location of the infringement or the details of such. In other words, we should be fighting not for concealed carry in the Adirondacks but for open carry in Times Square.
EDIT TO ADD: If I were a fiction writer, I would have a scene in the novel in which Bruen was approached back-channel by the ($$$) oligarchs and told to take some hits as far as the lawsuits were concerned, to get the 2A community to feel they won a few and back down a bit. When you are they type of person who deals with mostly clean money mixed in with some dirty money, as NY is famous for, you DO NOT NEED controversy. This is the way business is done in NY, and Hochul, besides being an autocrat (rule by one person) is also an idealogue who has recruited the wrong people (downstate politicians) as friends. Bruen approached her and told her to calm down on 2A issues, and she is lashing out and wants his scalp same as if he outright betrayed her. (The above paragraph is just the rambling of someone who taught creative writing)
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Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
Except they aren’t in PA and it’s illegal in NYS at least for now. I’m specifically talking about carrying in certain areas and open carry is another story. He will be arrested for sure and charged with a felony. He will have many rights stripped from him. We will see what happens
I haven't found where open carry is illegal in NY in a statue. Possession of a handgun without a permit is illegal, and on said permit that permit is concealed. IMO its a challenge of definition, which also happens to challenge the CCIA.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
What would he be charged with for open carrying ?
The sensitive zones thing is going to go away evetually I think. It’s too much of an overreach for even moderately leftist judges.
Imagine trying to apply "sensitive areas" that cover most of the state to speech or worship.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted.
It does not say "to have only while carrying concealed" otherwise you would be in violation anytime the gun wasn't concealed on your person (i.e. if it was in your safe at home).
A possession only permit would say "to have" and neglect the "carry concealed" part.
That's essentially the difference between a restricted permit and a full carry.
That_FNG
.308 Win
If open carry is illegal in nys what specific sections of the law allow exemptions for armed security and law enforcement to open carry? What specific sections allow exemptions for people during hunting season to open carry while hunting?
byron
.308 Win
The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted. on my permit it says license to carry pistol is hereby granted to. nowhere on it says concealed
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
Correct. That’s why I said open carrying is another story. I was specifically speaking about them open carrying in sensitive places or restricted places. The open carrying on them is to push the envelope to see if they get charged with something related and then it’s so they are arrested to hopefully speed up the challenge to the sensitive locations.
I agree with your statement above that open carrying is t illegal or specifically prohibited anywhere I can find in the law.
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
I didn’t say it was illegal hence why I said open carrying is another story and I’m specifically speaking to carrying a gun in certain areas.
To all I’m not saying open carrying is illegal. Will the cops be called and will it create a problem in some areas and some situations yes, but can you be charged no.
Saltwater60
.950 JDJ
Same here. Mine doesn’t say anywhere concealed carry.
This is the exact reason why all permits need to go away in all states. It’s too confusing. Some states you need nothing for either open or concealed, some states you need permit for possession, some states you only need a permit to concealed carry. I’m sure there are a few other rules or situations I’m missing, but those are the most common.
I hope that’s what happens with one of these laws. Some one needs to challenge that we need a permit and that we can’t carry to another state in many cases. We don’t need a new law passed saying national carry is allowed anymore since it wasn’t restricted in history, text, or tradition.
Egret-II
.40 S&W
When all cops decide NOT to arrest anybody for conceal carry, all these stupid laws and permits will go away. You DONT need permission from the goverment to exercise your Second Amendment right. Cops can't just say: " that's the law and I'm just doing my job. " then why they have to endforce unconstitutional laws and NOT the CONSTITUTION?
Understood. btw- a constitutional lawyer stated its much more difficult to repeal a law based on criminal charges than civil- see the 4 boxes diner.
FYI-Mine does specifically say "to carry concealed " but open carry isn't prohibited in law.