I wouldn't trust any 3 letter agency, especially with my life.
9mm vs .357 Sig vs .40 S&W vs .45 ACP
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
I'm just saying we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming that just because round x penetrates y" that is what it will do against an attacker. Again I don't think the caliber especially matters once you are into the main defensive range of cartridges. I choose 9mm HSTs because based on the data its is entirely adequate performance wise and is cheap, widely available and I get more shots. I think the 357 SIG is cool and the 10mm also but I don't think I'd get a gun in either for anything other than the novelty of it. The SIG P220 Elite in 10mm does pique my interest I must say.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
In soft tissue like a body, yes. Through a barrier, no. The videos above show that.
If I recall correctly, a renowned pathologist by the name of Dr. Vincent DeMaio was asked what was the best handgun caliber for self defense. His response was something like "the one that allows you to put as many shots into the center of the bad guy." In other words, just like real estate, Location, Location, Location. And because intermediate barrier penetration (windshields, car doors, etc.) are not a concern for me, I'll stick with Speer Gold Dot 124 gr or Federal HSTs in my carry guns, Glock 19 or 43.
Never been a fan of 40S&W, and as of late, it seems that many police agencies are stepping away from it, if what I read is correct. 357Sig has never really caught on with a lot of agencies, much to my dismay. I think that budget concerns over shadowed performance but that's only my opinion.
9mm is making a comeback, probably because of both budget concerns and officer control/accuracy issues. Once again IMHO
At 5'8" and 175 with aging hands the 9mm has replaced my favorite .45s for carry. And it's cost efficient for a lot of practice. The older I get the more I need. It is a perishable skill.
Never been a fan of 40S&W, and as of late, it seems that many police agencies are stepping away from it, if what I read is correct. 357Sig has never really caught on with a lot of agencies, much to my dismay. I think that budget concerns over shadowed performance but that's only my opinion.
9mm is making a comeback, probably because of both budget concerns and officer control/accuracy issues. Once again IMHO
At 5'8" and 175 with aging hands the 9mm has replaced my favorite .45s for carry. And it's cost efficient for a lot of practice. The older I get the more I need. It is a perishable skill.
Because that's not true?
Per Underwood:
357 Sig, 125Gr JHP: 1475 FPS, 604ft-lb.
10MM Auto, 135Gr JHP: 1600 FPS, 767ft-lb.
?
Curse you Tom Clancy for getting me started with the 10MM!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I guess I am mistaken. Ballistics by the inch said different for Corbon.Because that's not true?
Per Underwood:
357 Sig, 125Gr JHP: 1475 FPS, 604ft-lb.
10MM Auto, 135Gr JHP: 1600 FPS, 767ft-lb.
?
Curse you Tom Clancy for getting me started with the 10MM!
So going with Underwood's numbers, the 10mm beats the Sig in barrier penetration due to the velocity. If we can agree that that is a good thing, why cannot we agree that the .40 and .45 are not that great when it comes to ammo selection in regards to barrier penetration?
That's up to you bro. I genuinely don't think the difference between all of them is that great. If you plan ahead for a specific scenario and take a specific caliber for a slight or even moderate edge, that's great. For "the grizzly bear" I'd either want my (15 round free state...)10MM or my 500 or a hot 44Mag. For the "tin can" I'd want the .22 or .25 etc. For 2 legged beasts I think any will do and all this stuff is dick measuring. Barrier penetration takes the very small chance of ever being in a gunfight and makes it even more minuscule.
"They bounced off windshields." Yeah, and there is a guy that survived both atomic bombs in WWII as well.
Doesn't mean I don't like what all the various calibers do and whatnot, or their history.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Correct. On human tissue, there isn't much difference when they all expand to mm's of one another and penetrate to about the same depth.
As far as barrier penetration goes and the small chance of being in a gunfight.....?
Why carry then?If you do get into a gunfight against another armed person, the chance of shooting through barriers is quite real. Most armed people don't stand straight in one spot and shoot. (Maybe yo yo wannabe gangsters do) If barrier penetration wasn't a real factor, it wouldn't be a concern for law enforcement.
Same reason I carry a gun and not a gun, 3 switchblades, 2 bulletproof vests, an armored car, an armed detail, a flak helmet, a radiation suit, etc. Risk vs. reward.Correct. On human tissue, there isn't much difference when they all expand to mm's of one another and penetrate to about the same depth.
As far as barrier penetration goes and the small chance of being in a gunfight.....?
Not quite sure it works that way. Unless you think that the NYSP carrying the 45 GAP also means that their considerations aren't as valid. Plus, if a BG runs and hides, I'm out. I just want out of the situation.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Right but the 3 switchblades, flak jacket, ect is a hindrance. The .357 Sig or 9mm is not. In fact, the low capacity of other calibers that start with the number 4 is a hindrance.
The NYSP and most local police aren't known for smart adoptions based on facts. That's why we have 12 pound triggers, .45 Gap, ect based on no data.
...and perhaps their carry choice?
The military does this too. I highly doubt that the 55Gr NATO FMJ is the best round for war, but...politics.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Right about politics.
My point however is that there are tests out there that determine how rounds perform rather than basing data on gun store talk. That was the point of my posted video. Unless of course, the video I posted was altered.
That is aBecause that's not true?
Per Underwood:
357 Sig, 125Gr JHP: 1475 FPS, 604ft-lb.
10MM Auto, 135Gr JHP: 1600 FPS, 767ft-lb.
?
Curse you Tom Clancy for getting me started with the 10MM!
62gr. Which also sucks. Actually I understand the 55gr wasn't bad really.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
The .357 sig and .40 have the same mag capacity.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Correct. .45 ACP?
Is there anything still chambered in 9x25? It was always such a niche cartridge and didn't last very long in any case. If you want to go numb with muzzle blast why not get one of those ridiculous derringers chambered in .223 or 7.62x39?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Those that want to learn. My first carry was the .45 ACP. You can't go wrong with a heavy 230 gr. Right? No one could tell me otherwise.
Not so until I researched. I also thought all hollow points were the same. I also thought that a .230 gr that expands from a 5 inch barrel would behave the same from a 3 inch barrel not knowing that I was basically carrying FMJ's.
I learned about the .45 on another gun forum. Maybe someone here can learn as well. You carry a .380 ACP Buffalo Bore that doesn't even reach vitals.
What's with all the hate? Would you rather I create another picture thread?
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I want a Magnum Research revolver in 45-70.
And yes, they make G20 barrels for 9x25:
Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail - LWD Barrel M/20 Conversion to 9x25 Extended 2 Port - $104.95
Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail - LWD Barrel M/20 Conversion to 9x25 Stock Length - $99.95
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In terms of blast I'd bet the snubby little derringer is worse than the 45/70 revolver. Most of the powder is combusting outside the barrel!I want a Magnum Research revolver in 45-70.
And yes, they make a G20 barrel for 9x25:
Lone Wolf Distributors - Product Detail - LWD Barrel M/20 Conversion to 9x25 Extended 2 Port - $104.95
But fortunately practicality need not be the final word in a gun purchase. At least in the case of your listed wants. A .223/7.62x39 single shot handgun with a less than 2" barrel is just stupid.
My .22WMR NAA Mini is one of the loudest and most painful recoiling guns I have.
I think those mini masters are pretty cool though.
Got a NAA Pug in 22WMR - haven't fired it in a while - don't recall it having much of recoil. Now that .357 Magnum derringer got exactly 5 rounds shot out of it - DONE! Sold.
Pug has more weight and different grips. The .22 WMR with Maxi Mags hits my thumb webbing with more of a sting than my 500. Yes, the 500 is a whallop, but the WMR is a sting just in the right place. Glad I got both cylinders to shoot .22S-L-LR as well.
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ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Your prior post made it sound like the 9 and .359 sig had the same capacity. Just wanted to clear that up.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Will should go back to a 10 round .45. It's pretty quiet compared to the 9mm. I know he's mentioned blast being a consideration.
Tiny guns, even in light calibers, are brutal. I once fired a mag through a little .380 Seecamp. My trigger finger was bleeding when I was done. It was the least pleasant handgun I've fired.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. I know the Sig uses the .40 Case. I meant the other 2 or 3.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If it was better, I would. I mean who wouldn't be enamored with such a big number. 230 grains. That's got to be powerful!Will should go back to a 10 round .45. It's pretty quiet compared to the 9mm. I know he's mentioned blast being a consideration.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I found a Arex Rex Zero compact 9mm. You should buy it! I'm trying to talk myself out of it....