Just run .300 blackout pistol w/10.5” barrel, 115 grain Barnes Tac-x rounds zeroed at your longest shot in the house and be done with it. No fuss no muss, (well in a free state it wouldn’t have any).
A look at handgun vs PCC vs Ar-15 pistol for HD
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
Know what's pulling HD duty tonight?
My 590A1 that's what so thhhbbbbbt!
My 590A1 that's what so thhhbbbbbt!
99cummins
.308 Win
Interesting but it’s still my carry pistol. It’s always on me or arms length away along with a spare mag. First rule in a gun fight is have a gun.
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
People do screw up the pump guns under duress, certainly (you could get a semi to alleviate this).
As for length you can get one shorter.
As for precision around a loved one, even buck shot won't spread much in a house distance, and if it does too much you could shoot slugs.
Capacity wouldn't bother me because each shot you land is devastating. In shootings shotguns have among the highest one-shot encounter finishing of anything. Appreciably higher than any pistol round.
My guess is an SBR--sorry, I mean an AR pistol--would be the best in NY state, followed by the shortest legal barrel you can put on a semi shotgun and put buck shot in it.
As for length you can get one shorter.
As for precision around a loved one, even buck shot won't spread much in a house distance, and if it does too much you could shoot slugs.
Capacity wouldn't bother me because each shot you land is devastating. In shootings shotguns have among the highest one-shot encounter finishing of anything. Appreciably higher than any pistol round.
My guess is an SBR--sorry, I mean an AR pistol--would be the best in NY state, followed by the shortest legal barrel you can put on a semi shotgun and put buck shot in it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So under stress you are going to switch to slugs? Or will you take that chance that all the pellets will go where you want them to?
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I dunno, I think a 14.5" or 16" AR (or what have you) is handy enough indoors. SBR lengths were developed for use in and around vehicles.
The blast and flash from a 5.56 out of a 16" barrel is already severe.
As for the pump vs semi thing. I have a 590A1 and I like it. But I want a Benelli M4 baaaad.
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Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
certainly not. If you don’t like BBs you only load slugs.
Unless you get in the eye it’s not gonna be so bad.
I question the odds of this scenario in which you’re shooting at somebody scuffling with a family member anyway.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I think that scenario is very likely. Someone breaks into your home you're in the bedroom upstairs and the assailants on the bedroom downstairs where someone else sleeps. You hear screaming, go downstairs, the assailant sees you and runs towards your family member.
On the ceiling breaks into a child's room and you respond with your shotgun. He sees you and open fires. Now you have the choice of firing in close proximity of your child through a smooth Bore that you can't be 100% sure where your pellets are going to go. A burr in the barrel or maybe even a bad load can cause a flyer.
We've all seen that one flyer from a pellet on a paper target.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
AR15 pistol is a bit of a waste too much noise and loss but at 12" a black hills TMK is an excellent soft target round. Broad wounding
with enough penetration in soft targets.
That is also why we have the 5.7FN not only to provide adequate speed but to drastically increase firepower with the same magazine weight
and size.
The problem with 9mm carbines is that at 16" many loads actually loose speed so in this case is better to have 12-14" max.
That is where the 357SIG, 9x25 dillon and perhaps a few others come in. They don't loose speed and the gain in speed in a 10"-14" barrel makes them
a perfect rounds for both pistol but specially SBR/CQB. They can also score in speed and rifle category when using 80gr hp solids that
outperform many tipical pistol rounds in hardbarrier and glass. That is why the US secret service use the FN and SIG yet they can
have anything they want. Of course they also have assault rifles and heavy long range rifles.
Same idea as a hot 357 magnum on carbines but in a modern compact platform. very powerful rounds and less noise and concusion vs. rifle rounds.
One round that is amazing in short 10-12" pistols is the 6.8spc with the 90gr Winchester bonded and solids. It outperforms all the other AR15 mainstream rounds in speed and penetration in hard barrier and soft targets.
with enough penetration in soft targets.
That is also why we have the 5.7FN not only to provide adequate speed but to drastically increase firepower with the same magazine weight
and size.
The problem with 9mm carbines is that at 16" many loads actually loose speed so in this case is better to have 12-14" max.
That is where the 357SIG, 9x25 dillon and perhaps a few others come in. They don't loose speed and the gain in speed in a 10"-14" barrel makes them
a perfect rounds for both pistol but specially SBR/CQB. They can also score in speed and rifle category when using 80gr hp solids that
outperform many tipical pistol rounds in hardbarrier and glass. That is why the US secret service use the FN and SIG yet they can
have anything they want. Of course they also have assault rifles and heavy long range rifles.
Same idea as a hot 357 magnum on carbines but in a modern compact platform. very powerful rounds and less noise and concusion vs. rifle rounds.
One round that is amazing in short 10-12" pistols is the 6.8spc with the 90gr Winchester bonded and solids. It outperforms all the other AR15 mainstream rounds in speed and penetration in hard barrier and soft targets.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Well a shotgun also gives you a huge amount of momentum and can take the role of a large bore magnum for dangerous game.
The rifled sabots from sauvarne are solid rounds that challenge many other popular bush wackers and with a shotgun like
a savage bolt action can put 3 holes around a US quarter at 100 yards.
The 1.5 oz slugs are brutal when it comes to penetration and fast killing. They just produce so much hidraulic force that
the animals collapse in a comma before they are dead.
If one shoots a deer with one of those in the front the slug will come out the rear and leave
a wound like a human leg. So animals DRT. Possibly destroy too much meat that is why folks
use the budget slugs.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Maybe heavy loads. But the lighter loads still pick up speed.
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No doubt they are adequate but I think you are being a little dramatic.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
just a tiny bit dramatic considering shotguns "are just for little birds" and grizzlies alike. lol
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There are much better choices for grizzlies than shotguns. Sure. They'll work. Isn't that what you always say?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
With the 9mm and anything smaller, the bore volume to case volume ratio is disproportionate past 13-14" and that is why it runs out of speed
with many loads. Very hard to be consistent when the mid-low range pressure is gone.
A .357 bore and certain rifling and materials will help but it is not a 16" carbine round as it was not designed for that
like many other pistol rounds.
with many loads. Very hard to be consistent when the mid-low range pressure is gone.
A .357 bore and certain rifling and materials will help but it is not a 16" carbine round as it was not designed for that
like many other pistol rounds.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
But this is a home defense thread. Who cares about bears?
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Did you not see the ballistics by the inch I sent you that clearly proved you wrong?
It depends on the grain used and the powder used.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Grandma doesn't want to replace the 12ga benelli she has by the bed side by a 600 nitro H&H. lol
She knows 7 shells of hots is 3,000 x 7loads = 21,000 ft-lb
Whatever one's hit with the appropriate shotgun load, it is coming down ipso-facto.
There is more to shotguns than simply shooting quail or clays.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Will find a job or hobby. for your own good.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Right but that's what they are best for. For self-defense, hunting, there are much better options. More accurate options. Deeper penetrating options.
Other than birds, the shotgun is the jack of all trades and master of none. It'll work but not as best as other options. It has its limitations.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
what does that mean? Are you going to ignore those results and instead make jokes?
Look at that chart and tell me that 115 grain and 124 grain loads aren't picking up speed up to 16 inches.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
This is what I meant meke. Sure shotguns can do it all. As with anything else in life that can “do it all”, they don’t do most of it best. The three things I listed are all they do best. Everything else can be accomplished better with something else.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I know, my point is at what cost. most people cannot justify a super magnum or big bore over the power of a shotgun.
And there are shotguns that are so reliable and loads so brutal that it becomes a very attractive a versatile choice for so many people.
The thing with the shotgun is when you get into those type of loads with 1.3-1.5 oz. and large or flat metplats they do not even need
to expand like smaller bores. They displace so much fluid that the hydraulic pressure alone causes disruption of the CNS, instant comma and collapse
while the massive wounding assures quick death.
However if one is serious about a shotgun for HD I feel one should look into a reliable autoloader vs. a pump. The convenience and speed
of an auto-loader only compounds to its high lethality in close range.
For other people that are not so good or experienced at aiming, sending multiple projectiles is also an advantage. not just the heaviest buck
load but double tap slugs.
The only disadvantage is the inconvenience of reloading a tube but one can get good at that. But also many popular big bores are either
tubes, bolt action or break open actions anyway.
I guess that is where the saiga & molot popularity comes in as an excellent woods and hd firearm.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
There are dozens of 9mm loads and many of them loose speed with 16.5" bores.
When working in rifle loads and new cartridges or match loads I used to bring many times rifles and pistols and commercial
ammo to test it. This is how one knows how the firearms and ammo one has perform instead of just taking online data
that might be accurate in those conditions but does not describe all the conditions of the testing including barrel making, rifling, actual real
size of the bore (Some folks measure from the tenon, some from the bolt face, some from the breech). Even from year
to year and occasionally from batch to batch ammunition changes.
The tables online only show a small assortment. What one has to do is either stick to proven and tested high performance ammo
or maybe look at something shorter to get more consistent speeds across the board.
The 357 SIG and 9x25 are such nice carbine cartriges because that tiny bit more powder makes a big difference.
The 357 magnum in a carbine, even a 18" rivals popular rifle rounds and at short range gives substantial killing power in line with
popular rifle rounds. I would say no many people would choose the cheapest ammo for defense no matter what.
The only issue is the tube fed systems in the case of the 357 mag. but there alternative systems that take magazines
and are pretty reliable.
So many good choices. I would not be surprised ruger releases a .425 bolt face (and caliber) for the PC carbine.
One can also find the old ruger 10/44 in 44 mag but with the cost to run a 357 of any kind it seems worth the wait
or look into other platforms and even better rounds.
When working in rifle loads and new cartridges or match loads I used to bring many times rifles and pistols and commercial
ammo to test it. This is how one knows how the firearms and ammo one has perform instead of just taking online data
that might be accurate in those conditions but does not describe all the conditions of the testing including barrel making, rifling, actual real
size of the bore (Some folks measure from the tenon, some from the bolt face, some from the breech). Even from year
to year and occasionally from batch to batch ammunition changes.
The tables online only show a small assortment. What one has to do is either stick to proven and tested high performance ammo
or maybe look at something shorter to get more consistent speeds across the board.
The 357 SIG and 9x25 are such nice carbine cartriges because that tiny bit more powder makes a big difference.
The 357 magnum in a carbine, even a 18" rivals popular rifle rounds and at short range gives substantial killing power in line with
popular rifle rounds. I would say no many people would choose the cheapest ammo for defense no matter what.
The only issue is the tube fed systems in the case of the 357 mag. but there alternative systems that take magazines
and are pretty reliable.
So many good choices. I would not be surprised ruger releases a .425 bolt face (and caliber) for the PC carbine.
One can also find the old ruger 10/44 in 44 mag but with the cost to run a 357 of any kind it seems worth the wait
or look into other platforms and even better rounds.
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BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Some of us care as much about coyotes as we do crackheads.
Vapor
.308 Win
