I've heard this same concept when talking about 2 stage guide rods. Recoil impulse seems like its sill kind of in the voodoo realm.
Any of You Guys Carry 124 gr +P Gold Dots?
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
PM sent.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The raw force and time *can* be precisely measured and predicted, but applying that to the "felt recoil" involves a lot of voodoo. Even the values measured by a fully instrumented handgun (accelerometers, force gauges, etc...) would vary significantly from shooter to shooter if the gun was fired from a normal grip and not some sort of rigid rest..
And that's just the physics, add in the psychology that has to go into something like "felt recoil" and you're way out of the realm of "hard science". When you figure that in, what you've even heard *about* a round starts to be important. Load up 2 magazines of identical ammo and shoot them over a chronograph that's rigged to lie and you'll probably swear they feel different.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I have shot +P's that to me felt no different than standard pressure. Then I have shot standard pressure HST's that felt harsher than 9mm NATO.
Spat is correct. It all depends on the powder used and the grip used.
Spat is correct. It all depends on the powder used and the grip used.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I went to the range today at lunch and put 150 through the new H&K. I shot gold dot 124 +p then the underwood right after it. I could tell a difference in recoil for sure. It was not a huge difference but it was there for sure the underwood seemed to bark a bit more also. I also shot 50 FMJ NATO's. They didn't feel much different than the normal FMJ ball. The Critical Defense was very soft shooting for a HD/PD round. The extreme penetrator was not bad at all in the recoil dept.
That is why I am now running the 124gr +P HSTs in the Shield now in lieu of the standard pressure ones. I was using the regular 124s for tge Shield after seeing the impressive blast the +Ps generated but I'll accept that in exchange for the increased performance. Now I can just standardize on the one cartridge for both pistols.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'm using the standard pressure ones because that's all that was available by me and I bought a lot of them.
I may just buy a few boxes and just carry the +P+'s. I would be cool if Underwood loaded the HST's to +P+.
Neither my Shield nor my PPQ is rated for +P+ ammo. Most pistols aren't given that there is no SAMI spec for +P+ loads.I'm using the standard pressure ones because that's all that was available by me and I bought a lot of them.
I may just buy a few boxes and just carry the +P+'s. I would be cool if Underwood loaded the HST's to +P+.
And HSTs are by Federal.
And there isn't a whole lot of performance variance within the HST line anyways, you're fine with the standards I'd warrant.
Just got around to reading all of your and @Willjr75's whinging. Neither of you are wrong and both the practical and technical assets of SD equipment can be studied at the same time. I like HSTs cause the place I buy ammo from runs good deals on em.
This however is untrue. The US was never a signatory of the Hague Convention and therfore we are not bound by it, which is why our forces are free to use things like .50 BMG Raufoss ammunition against enemy infantry. I suspect the main reason our armed forces have been using 9mm FMJ ammo is cost and NATO conformity. It sounds like the military will begin issuing JHP 9mm shortly however.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Glocks and Sigs will run them no problem. Those police departments that run +P+ do so with those two brands with no issues.
I don't think its at all necessary though. Its just a bandaid for the little 115gr pills if you ask me.
Wait a minute............ saaaaaay! Was that a dig!?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Huh?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
115? I'm talking about 124 and 127 grains.
I don't think I've seen 124gr +P+s inbthe wild. But I don't have tons of handgun exposure either. Who's making em?
Actually 127gr? Thats a Winchester Ranger Police load innit?
You slamin' on my PPQ?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yea. The Ranger. You are correct though. +p+’s they've been using other then the ranger is the 115's.
Hey. I can be wrong sometimes!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I wasn't but if Darth likes it, then it's no good. Come on. Even you know that.
Ranger handgun loads are hard to find. SG is always out of stock. I think its that "Black Talon" catchet. I don't even think theybare as good as Gold Dots or HSTs. Seen a few tests now where there was failure to expand with them.Yea. The Ranger. You are correct though. +p+’s they've been using other then the ranger is the 115's.
Hey. I can be wrong sometimes!
But I like it though! Honestly, I can shoot the PPQ better than any handgun I've tried, even the very nice P226 Legion!
Hey @Willjr75, you gonna shoot the July match? You should you know.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What match?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
He said you have to be a real shooter. I don't qualify.
No he didn't, @dsdmmat said, of the Irons Match, "Let's see who the real shooters are". And he asked for politics to be left at the door. But the matches are a lot of fun, it's good training and it gives entertaining purpose to my range sessions. Its killing me to miss the next two!He said you have to be a real shooter. I don't qualify.
Give it a whirl.
I have done 100's of 9mm ballistic gel tests and will be holding a class at some point this summer. Gold dots 124+P are a dismal performer in regards to gel and 4 layers of denim. Especially out of a short barrel. Using a Glock 43 and a Shield , Gold dots 124+P ONE out of FIVE expanded and penetrated to 14"! The other 4 failed to expand and penetrated past 20" with 4 layers of Denim. HST 124 standard pressure performed the best with 25 out of 25 penetrating to at least 15-18 1/2" and all expanded beautifully. Corbon DPX 115+P was also a reliable penetrator and expander out of the short barrel. Gold dots performed better using a service length barrel of 4.4" and greater.
I would love to spend a few days with you to see how to work the gel and conduct your tests.
I've read in several places the Corbon DPX 115s were good performers. I'll have to gets some and see how the do. I'm curious if they keep my Shield flatter than the HST 124gr +Ps.
I carry Corbon DPX 185+P and Remington Golden Saber 185+P in my Shield 45 and MP .45 C
I carry Federal HST 124 standard pressure in all my 9mm's. Not the most accurate round but the most reliable
I carry Corbon 125gr DPX in my .357 SIG and if I was LEO I would carry Underwood 125gr Gold dots in .357 SIG
I carry Federal HST 165gr in my .40 Glock 23
I carry Underwood Xtreme Penetrator in 380 penetrated to 17"
On a side note the Underwood Xtrme defense performed very well in 9mm and 45. Both penetrated to 17-17 1/2" just no expansion of course
Another side note...
Federal HST 165gr penetrated 16", expanded .668"
Federal HST 180gr penetrated 14", expanded .761
Federal HST 155gr penetrated 14 1/2", expanded .655"
Winchester PDX1 165gr penetrated 15", expanded .694
Speer 155gr gold dot penetrated 15", expanded .622
Sig .357 test as well
Underwood 125gr speer gold dot penetrated 19 1/2", expanded .584
Corbon DPX 125gr penetrated 17", expanded to .680
All the .40 ammo did very well. I have been carrying the Federal HST 165gr for years. In .357 the Underwood overpenetrated 1 1/2". The Corbon DPX continues to be very consistent in regards to expansion.
I carry Federal HST 124 standard pressure in all my 9mm's. Not the most accurate round but the most reliable
I carry Corbon 125gr DPX in my .357 SIG and if I was LEO I would carry Underwood 125gr Gold dots in .357 SIG
I carry Federal HST 165gr in my .40 Glock 23
I carry Underwood Xtreme Penetrator in 380 penetrated to 17"
On a side note the Underwood Xtrme defense performed very well in 9mm and 45. Both penetrated to 17-17 1/2" just no expansion of course
Another side note...
Federal HST 165gr penetrated 16", expanded .668"
Federal HST 180gr penetrated 14", expanded .761
Federal HST 155gr penetrated 14 1/2", expanded .655"
Winchester PDX1 165gr penetrated 15", expanded .694
Speer 155gr gold dot penetrated 15", expanded .622
Sig .357 test as well
Underwood 125gr speer gold dot penetrated 19 1/2", expanded .584
Corbon DPX 125gr penetrated 17", expanded to .680
All the .40 ammo did very well. I have been carrying the Federal HST 165gr for years. In .357 the Underwood overpenetrated 1 1/2". The Corbon DPX continues to be very consistent in regards to expansion.
Where do you live?