AR 15

HEX · Aug 12, 2020

Well, I did find this on their site after I posted that.

Regulatory Approval

California: The California Department of Justice has recently indicated the AR MAGLOCK is compliant with the new laws SB 880 /

armaglock.com

All it says though is that they've sent letters asking for approval from NY agencies. Not that they got it.
I would expect you would get arrested and become the test case with that installed, because it sure seems like a detachable mag to me (regardless of the very slight opening of the action). As others have said, there is no written/legal protocol to say however.

"New York:

In our concerted and diligent effort to gain approval of the AR MAGLOCK and protect our customers, we have spent over $2500 (legal, printing, and postage) mailing multitudes of New York authorities

Our legal counsel and firearms legislation specialists have completed an official mailing to the majority of the New York State Police, New York Sheriff’s, New York Chiefs of Police, NYAG and other affiliated law enforcement organizations. In aggregate over 350 letters were sent to various entities.

Our letter advocates for the official approval of the AR MAGLOCK device, with compelling analysis and confirmation of the NY SAFE laws consent that the AR MAGLOCK falls within the legislation as it is written. At the link below you will find a sample of the official letter.

Please contact your local LEO to impress upon them your concern for approval and gather any intel that may be of assistance in our fight for clarity. Additionally, we impress upon you to contact your local NYSP station commander and or sheriff and inquire about the letter we have sent. This will communicate the high level of interest in their respective jurisdiction. They may also render you a verbal decision as to their position on legality and policy if found on your firearm.

Lastly, please feel free to contact us with suggestions of other authorities we should contact for approval, or communicate back to us any information you glean from the conversations with your local LEO’s.

New York Letter to Contacts: NYSP, Sheriffs, NYAG Letter

Thank you for your continued support!

Regards,
AR MAGLOCK

Disclaimers:
– All other competing devices were excluded from the analysis, including the Patriot Mag Release, Cross Armory Safe Mag, and all others. We do NOT advocate the use of these devices via our analysis.
– This communication is not an official product approval by any law enforcement authority within the state of California or New York."

Saltwater60 · Aug 12, 2020

I’ve looked into the AR MAG lock and I’ve decided for myself that it is not legal in NYS because the magazine drops free and you put the upper and lower back in and reinsert the magazine. In order to have features you need to have the gun not accept detachable magazines. This does accept magazines therefore making it illegal. Everyone just says fixed mag and thinks that means fixed mag while firing/shooting. The safe act says can’t accept detachable magazines. This is illegal and the website does specifically say it’s good to go in California. I saw nothing in NYS.

Good luck.

HEX · Aug 12, 2020

vago said:
i ll get whatever is legal , i dont care is maglock or ny other brand

It's not a matter of brand. The only thing generally accepted to be for sure (and only so sure at that) considered legal is a permanently fixed magazine (or permanent within reason; meaning cannot be simply removed via tool)

spat · Aug 12, 2020

Saltwater60 said:
I’ve looked into the AR MAG lock and I’ve decided for myself that it is not legal in NYS because the magazine drops free and you put the upper and lower back in and reinsert the magazine. In order to have features you need to have the gun not accept detachable magazines. This does accept magazines therefore making it illegal. Everyone just says fixed mag and thinks that means fixed mag while firing/shooting. The safe act says can’t accept detachable magazines. This is illegal and the website does specifically say it’s good to go in California. I saw nothing in NYS.

Good luck.

It has to accept a "detachable" magazine to be illegal.

This is frequently understood to mean a magazine that can be detached while the weapon is still operable.

The ability to merely quickly attach a magazine that cannot be detached while the gun is still assembled probably doesn't cross the line. Probably.

The argument would be that while this can accept a magazine, that magazine is a fixed not detachable magazine because it can't be removed without disassembling the gun.

HEX · Aug 12, 2020

spat said:
It has to accept a "detachable" magazine to be illegal.

This is frequently understood to mean a magazine that can be detached while the weapon is still operable.

The ability to merely quickly attach a magazine that cannot be detached while the gun is still assembled probably doesn't cross the line. Probably.

The argument would be that while this can accept a magazine, that magazine is a fixed not detachable magazine because it can't be removed without disassembling the gun.

Agreed, and that's why is said it's an interesting concept. Might fly , might not.

That said, I wouldn't want to be the test case for it.

Tisto · Aug 12, 2020

spat said:
It has to accept a "detachable" magazine to be illegal.

This is frequently understood to mean a magazine that can be detached while the weapon is still operable.

The ability to merely quickly attach a magazine that cannot be detached while the gun is still assembled probably doesn't cross the line. Probably.

The argument would be that while this can accept a magazine, that magazine is a fixed not detachable magazine because it can't be removed without disassembling the gun.

NYSAFE says **NOTHING** about needing to use a tool to remove the mag, or needing to disassemble the gun to remove it. FIXED MAGAZINE is the standard in the wording of the law. Can it be removed ? If yes, then it's not a FIXED MAGAZINE.

California law used to say your mag was fixed if you had to disassemble the gun or use a tool to remove the mag. They changed that a few years back. People that had AR's with operational "bullet buttons" were forced to modify their gun or register it.

New York is NOT California. NYSAFE was written by people that have near zero knowledge of guns, but are extremely gifted in writing legal doctrine that is as all-encompassing as possible while being as vague as possible in order to be able to litigate in court that the law means whatever they want it to mean at that time and under whatever circumstances they desire.

The AR Maglock, I believe, would prove to be found NON-COMPLIANT by any District Attorney determined to make you into an example.

Follow the law as you see fit - just be aware that your interpretation of it holds no more water than a thimble with holes.

spat · Aug 12, 2020

Tisto said:
NYSAFE says **NOTHING** about needing to use a tool to remove the mag, or needing to disassemble the gun to remove it. FIXED MAGAZINE is the standard in the wording of the law. Can it be removed ? If yes, then it's not a FIXED MAGAZINE.

California law used to say your mag was fixed if you had to disassemble the gun or use a tool to remove the mag. They changed that a few years back. People that had AR's with operational "bullet buttons" were forced to modify their gun or register it.

New York is NOT California. NYSAFE was written by people that have near zero knowledge of guns, but are extremely gifted in writing legal doctrine that is as all-encompassing as possible while being as vague as possible in order to be able to litigate in court that the law means whatever they want it to mean at that time and under whatever circumstances they desire.

The AR Maglock, I believe, would prove to be found NON-COMPLIANT by any District Attorney determined to make you into an example.

Follow the law as you see fit - just be aware that your interpretation of it holds no more water than a thimble with holes.

Then there is no such thing as a fixed magazine and all semi-autos are subject to SAFE.

HEX · Aug 12, 2020

Tisto said:
NYSAFE says **NOTHING** about needing to use a tool to remove the mag, or needing to disassemble the gun to remove it. FIXED MAGAZINE is the standard in the wording of the law. Can it be removed ? If yes, then it's not a FIXED MAGAZINE.

There is a problem with your logic here though. Lets, just as an example, look at the SKS rifle on this point. The SKS (without modification) is a fixed magazine rifle and is accepted as such in NYS (as far as anyone knows).

You may or may not be familiar with the breakdown of an SKS, but if not (and to define the point to anyone else) , the magazine is actually not at all permanently fixed and is rather simple to replace with a removable one. The standard fixed magazine is quite firmly fixed of course, and non-removable, when the gun is in an operable state.

To remove the fixed magazine, one simply:
#1 Puts the gun safety to the on position
#2 Push a 'button" (it's designed to do with a bullet tip if one is lacking a tool) on the rear of the trigger housing.
#3 Remove trigger assembly/housing
#4 Pull out 'fixed' magazine

At that point, if one chooses to do so, an aftermarket removable magazine could then be put in and the trigger housing pushed back on (pops into place).

ArmedCorgi · Aug 12, 2020

There is nothing in the actual wording of the law stating a required permanence of a fixed magazine. The whole permanent thing comes from the NYSP "guidance" website on the safe act. Problem is that no one knows what will pass as fixed. You could go by the website, which says to epoxy the mag release, but again, that isn't stated in the law. The law says nothing of method and the NYSP do not make or interpret the law. As far as what a trooper or other LEO will say...who knows? Who knows if they follow their own guidance or if they even care? I'd say you are most likely okay if you make a reasonable effort to comply and make the magazine fixed. Fixed meaning, no matter what they do short of using tools to take parts off the gun, the mag stays in place and therefor you cannot introduce another magazine.
This exact discussion/argument has taken place in many, many threads just like this one here on this forum already.

Tisto · Aug 12, 2020

spat said:
Then there is no such thing as a fixed magazine and all semi-autos are subject to SAFE.

Ok, let me clarify this for you. If you have to use a drill, a grinder, or a torch, or if in the process of removing the magazine you had to destroy part of the weapon, then it was a fixed magazine, even though it "could" be removed. Better ?

Nowhere in NY law ( that I am aware of ) is there any expression that a fixed magazine is meant to mean that it cannot be removed while the weapon is operational. Further, I would suggest that had they intended it to mean that, they would have expressed it that way.

gun_slinger_boy · Aug 12, 2020

This thread got me thinkin'. Why hasn't a company made an actual fixed mag lower? In other words one where the mag is part of the actual receiver. You could still have a plate at the bottom to remove the follower and spring if ever needed. Then there would be no question if it's fixed or not.

Tisto · Aug 12, 2020

HEX said:
There is a problem with your logic here though. Lets, just as an example, look at the SKS rifle on this point. The SKS (without modification) is a fixed magazine rifle and is accepted as such in NYS (as far as anyone knows).

You may or may not be familiar with the breakdown of an SKS, but if not (and to define the point to anyone else) , the magazine is actually not at all permanently fixed and is rather simple to replace with a removable one. The standard fixed magazine is quite firmly fixed of course, and non-removable, when the gun is in an operable state.

To remove the fixed magazine, one simply:
#1 Puts the gun safety to the on position
#2 Push a 'button" (it's designed to do with a bullet tip if one is lacking a tool) on the rear of the trigger housing.
#3 Remove trigger assembly/housing
#4 Pull out 'fixed' magazine

At that point, if one chooses to do so, an aftermarket removable magazine could then be put in and the trigger housing pushed back on (pops into place).

I do not, and will not dispute the SKS fixed mag point you make. What I will say is that when a person or company designs a product to filet the law into layers thin enough as to be see-through, they run the risk of finding themselves on the wrong side of that law.

It is my opinion, and ONLY MY OPINION mind you, that the AR Maglock in question could easily be argued by any prosecutor to be NYSAFE non-compliant, and you would easily be found guilty of posessing a non-compliant weapon. The law was written vaguely for a reason. A vague law can be interpreted by the court to mean whatever they wani it to mean.

I bought and installed one of their original versions. After getting some looks from people that had the authority to push the issue, I removed it. These were people I know, and still they gave me a sideways look and cautioned me to be careful with it. Without actually saying it, they were telling me that not them, but certainly their co-workers might interpret it as non-compliant and try to jam me up.

Do as you see fit. Only when someone gets caught and it goes to trial will any of us know what the law means.

HEX · Aug 12, 2020

gun_slinger_boy said:
This thread got me thinkin'. Why hasn't a company made an actual fixed mag lower? In other words one where the mag is part of the actual receiver. You could still have a plate at the bottom to remove the follower and spring if ever needed. Then there would be no question if it's fixed or not.

I think the problem there would be that if the mag walls ever take any damage then the whole receiver would be garbage. Fixed mags that can be replaced if damaged make a whole lot more sense. DPMS does sell the DS-15 and DS-10 lowers, which come with pre-fixed PMAGS and Lancers respectively.

ArmedCorgi · Aug 12, 2020

gun_slinger_boy said:
This thread got me thinkin'. Why hasn't a company made an actual fixed mag lower? In other words one where the mag is part of the actual receiver. You could still have a plate at the bottom to remove the follower and spring if ever needed. Then there would be no question if it's fixed or not.

LRB Arms Non-Removable Magazine AR-15 Prototype - AllOutdoor.com

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America but those shooters who live in states with severe restrictions on the gun have to put up with a variety of limitations on their rifles. These types of laws typically include restrictions on common features such as pistol grips, non-thumbhole stocks...

www.alloutdoor.com

Also, I seem to remember way back that Atlantic Arms had a fixed mag lower where it was like there was no mag in the lower. It was flush. I cannot find it now.

gun_slinger_boy · Aug 12, 2020

I pictured something like this. But the damage thing does make sense. But then again that would be the case if any critical part of the receiver get's damaged no?

HEX · Aug 13, 2020

gun_slinger_boy said:
I pictured something like this. But the damage thing does make sense. But then again that would be the case if any critical part of the receiver get's damaged no?

Sure, I guess that could work if you made the magazine walls as thick as anything else, buuuut.. somebody would have to sink money into at least some level of development; perhaps especially in regard to designing said internal magazine redesign to reliably feed (maybe, i dunno). Also from a financial perspective though, you'd then have to retool all your machining (or initially set up some just for this, whatever) for what is really a pretty limited market (at least for now, until a new federal AWB is in place). The already limited market would be further limited (probably significantly) by people who'd prefer something that can be undone (if they move, etc). You'd likely have to charge more to cover all these costs and be profitable. All of that, when a simple set screw and cheap pmag will do the same job... well, I wouldn't invest in it (not that I have any money to invest..heh)

spat · Aug 13, 2020

Tisto said:
Ok, let me clarify this for you. If you have to use a drill, a grinder, or a torch, or if in the process of removing the magazine you had to destroy part of the weapon, then it was a fixed magazine, even though it "could" be removed. Better ?

Nowhere in NY law ( that I am aware of ) is there any expression that a fixed magazine is meant to mean that it cannot be removed while the weapon is operational. Further, I would suggest that had they intended it to mean that, they would have expressed it that way.

The vast majority of "fixed" magazines can be removed with only basic hand tools like a screwdriver or wrench. Many with nothing at all.

What does it take to remove the magazine from most shotguns ?

Tisto · Aug 13, 2020

spat said:
The vast majority of "fixed" magazines can be removed with only basic hand tools like a screwdriver or wrench. Many with nothing at all.

What does it take to remove the magazine from most shotguns ?

Are you arguing just for the sake of it ? You're arguing an absurd point.

I think it all gets down to intent. The SKS point that Hex raised is a good example. The mag of the SKS *can* be removed, but it was designed to be left in place and top loaded. Thus, a fixed mag.

Sure, you can remove the tubular magazine from a shotgun with a pair of vice grips or a pipe wrench, but it was designed in such a way as to never having the intention to remove it. Fixed mag.

The AR platform was designed with the intention of removing and replacing the magazine to provide more ammunition to the gun. With the AR Maglock, the magazine still drops free with the intent of it being replaced with a full one.

gun_slinger_boy · Aug 13, 2020

Tisto said:
Are you arguing just for the sake of it ? You're arguing an absurd point.

Welcome to nygunforum.com.

jw816 · Aug 13, 2020

I use FC lock and like it very much.

BDinPutnam · Aug 13, 2020

Thordsen and thread protector for the win.

ArmedCorgi · Aug 13, 2020

jw816 said:
I use FC lock and like it very much.

Is that something that can be reversed once installed?
**Edit**Nevermind, I found my answer.

jw816 · Aug 13, 2020

ArmedCorgi said:
Is that something that can be reversed once installed?

Yes.

gun_slinger_boy · Aug 13, 2020

jw816 · Aug 13, 2020

If you want to go featureless, in my opinion, Thordsen may be the way to go. But for me, I feel Thordsen's stock is a bit heavy for me. I personally prefer the center of gravity towards the front of the rifle. Here is the current set up for my featureless AR 9mm. It has a Strike Industry grip and a Magpul fixed stock. The weight is reduced for almost a pound. The grip is very comfortable as well. Its downside is that I can't use an ambi safety selector. However, as I know, there is no legal definition of a pistol grip in the state of NY. Nobody can tell that the grip is legal or not.

MillidotShooter · Aug 13, 2020

HEX said:
Having looked at the video for that magazine lock , I'm not sure if that would fly in NY either. I'm also not certain that it wouldn't though. Interesting concept..

HEX said:
Who says it is ? I'm not sure how they could even claim that.. but I don't see anywhere on their site that they do. They say designed for and legal in CA. Where do you see them say NY ? (I'm not saying you're wrong that they say it, but I don't see it anywhere)

There is no way in hell that is NY Compliant. Not dissimilar to the Cross Armory Safe Mag 2 system. (I actually called the hotline and the dude told me the Cross Armory Safe Mag 2 was NO BUENO) The way it was explained to me in regards to the un-SAFE act, the removal of the magazine cannot be a simple thing, such as just breaking the action. Removal of the mag should require tools. I believe there was another thread in here somewhere about some dealer who was being prosecuted for selling rifles with the Bullet Button style Mag lock that only got off on a technicality for errors in the search warrant. The judge stated in his decision something to the effect that even though the state has not defined what constitutes a fixed mag, a reasonable amount of effort should be required to remove the mag for it to be compliant. If it wasn't for the technicality he probably would have been found guilty.

Because I was told it was no good, I didn't buy it... I DID outfit my lower with the Quick Pins though... THOSE THINGS ARE AWESOME!

spat · Aug 13, 2020

Tisto said:
Are you arguing just for the sake of it ? You're arguing an absurd point.

I think it all gets down to intent. The SKS point that Hex raised is a good example. The mag of the SKS *can* be removed, but it was designed to be left in place and top loaded. Thus, a fixed mag.

Sure, you can remove the tubular magazine from a shotgun with a pair of vice grips or a pipe wrench, but it was designed in such a way as to never having the intention to remove it. Fixed mag.

The AR platform was designed with the intention of removing and replacing the magazine to provide more ammunition to the gun. With the AR Maglock, the magazine still drops free with the intent of it being replaced with a full one.

That is a very difficult thing to legislate.

Basing laws on what you claim someone's intention when designing something is ends up being a train wreck.

Do you want to come up with the test for how to determine if a magazine was "intended" to detach or not ?

You cannot legitimately make a law that says "you know, we know it when we see it".

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