Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What makes it fixed if it can be removed and another one inserted?
Whether it is enforced is an entirely different matter as I've stated before.
Bullet button legality in NYS
- Thread starter freddy
- Start date
Whether it is enforced is an entirely different matter as I've stated before.
Uzi
.308 Win
Gun stores wouldn't be selling the locked magazines (there are several variations now, but they all work the same way) in NY state by the thousands, and they wouldn't be advertised AS NY LEGAL AR's if they weren't already considered a reasonable alternative and legal enough to sell by the FFL's that sell them in HUGE numbers all across the state. Just because it's a good idea to be able to modify the gun back, does NOT make it able to accept a magazine when it's in its locked state. They DON'T mention it needs to be permanent by law. Any gun can be modified to do something differently. Just because you can modify something into something illegal doesn't make that legal something illegal... And if by "reasonable means" didn't qualify with these thousands of locked magazine ar's, then no FFL would be selling them.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No need. I'll pick it up. It's on me gentleman.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Again, enforcement is an entirely different issue. Gun shops have sold other things later not declared legal.
The permanence thing had been discussed already so I will let you have a stab at it since it couldn't be answered before.
How can you make an AR incapable of accepting a magazine unless the magazine is in there permanently?
Uzi
.308 Win
No. I think everything has been covered pretty well at this point. Lots of people repeating the same answers over and over again, including myself. I'm wondering if you're asking what will a judge do if you're charged owning something currently sold and perceived throughout the entire state as legal?.. Geez, I don't know. If anything is later declared not legal, then you do what everyone else does in the country, and you sell it or change it, resist it or fight it legally. NY wasn't limited to an assault weapons ban, everyone's been through this BS before. We work around these unconstitutional laws, and we create loopholes. Your "okay", is essentially who's legally selling them at the moment and has reasonable understanding of the law and is licensed to do so. You can get arrested and charged for ANYTHING. No sense in worrying about something that hasn't been an issue for years so far. Think about the thousands of police officers that go into gun shops everyday, why have they not arrested people buying locked mag AR's yet?
I could ask you what Will thinks is considered permanent, and then I can go ahead and refer Will to the law.
What guns in NYS were sold after 2013 that were later deemed illegal, and why, just out of curiosity?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
The BB equipped AR was although not by a court but rather the State Police.
Then the Mare's leg I believe also by the police and not by the courts.
Then the Mare's leg I believe also by the police and not by the courts.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So you cannot answer the question either? 
I'll reword it for you. If a magazine can be removed via any means without destroying the rifle, can it accept another magazine?
It's a yes or no answer.
I'll reword it for you. If a magazine can be removed via any means without destroying the rifle, can it accept another magazine?
It's a yes or no answer.
GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
So you cannot answer the question either?
I'll reword it for you. If a magazine can be removed via any means without destroying the rifle, can it accept another magazine?
It's a yes or no answer.
Potato?
Uzi
.308 Win
So you cannot answer the question either?
I'll reword it for you. If a magazine can be removed via any means without destroying the rifle, can it accept another magazine?
It's a yes or no answer.
You're seemingly desperate to confirm your own opinion. The context of that question doesn't have a relevant answer though. Why would I need to destroy my rifle anyways? If you build a FIXED magazine AR, It was built with all perfectly legal parts. You can convert or build featureless, bolt action, or stay fully featured. A magazine CAN come out when modified legally if you'd prefer though Will. You just have to make sure that how you're doing it is legal, so make sure it will fire with a featureless setting or on bolt action only before it's modified and changed into something else.
If you already have a locked magazine, it no longer matters though. Once you lock that magazine in, it is no longer a detachable magazine and the classification of the gun literally DOES CHANGE into a gun that will not accept a detachable magazine. Very simple. There is no button to press and it won't ever come out. Now, if you modify the legal rifle illegally, then yes, you could choose to make the now illegal gun use detachable magazines. Just like you can modify anything to "HAVE THE CAPABILITY". Just like I can EASILY drop in an auto sear milled for under $10 using digital files online. There is nothing in the law that states how the action needs to function minus the federal interpretation, to be disabled or enabled. Now let me know what part I need to reiterate.
I didn't ask for what the LEO's opinions are. What did the state law determine?
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So now you are dancing around the question too. The question was simple. It was a yes or no answer. Now you want to throw in whether you make it bolt action and then remove the magazine.
It doesn't change the fact that if configured as a semi automatic the magazine can be removed and another one inserted.
As far as the courts go, you know the answer to that. That still doesn't change the fact that the police stop FFL's from selling certain guns whether it's legal or illegal for them to do so.
So while you are at the range with your semi auto and you are using a bullet button, epoxied bullet button, MR2, Allen key, T-Nut, or what have you and you and a cop is standing next to you, can you remove that magazine via any method whether it be sticking a nail in there, using a wrench, allen key, or what have you and will it now be capable of accepting another magazine in that semi auto configuration?
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Uzi
.308 Win
I didn't dance around the question, even though it's still irrelavant. I already mentioned that you CAN modify the rifle and take the fixed magazine out, but LEGALLY... So what's the big deal? If I'm using a component that allows the magazine to come out like the bullet button, MR2, or maglock, then I can take the magazine out, but those aren't legal in NY because they're made to allow the magazine to come out purposely
I cannot put any magazines in though, because I can't take any magazines out. If I had intent to illegally modify the construction of the rifle, altering the legal components, it wouldn't matter what rifle I had, I could do it. I'm not talking about the MR2 or bullet button; those were NOT designed for locking a magazine. Those Magazines will freely come out like they were designed to. I'm talking about a magazine ONLY LOCK designed specifically to only lock the magazine only and to keep it always fixed. The product is made only for the specific purpose of containing a magazine. I'm not talking about california's interpretation of a tool used for a (bullet button) or any use of other tools or modifications that must be done to disassemble a gun or a magazine. I'm talking about a piece only made to lock a magazine. My rifles like thousands of others that utilize the same piece, are unable to accept a detachable magazine when the manufactured component is keeping that function from happening altogether. These rifles are being built and sold specifically as "fixed mag rifles" Gunsmithing and modifying is something completely different and a separate topic. That's where the interpretation matters because anything can be modified to accept something. I'm getting a goddamn headache at this point to be honest though.
Vinson57
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Accepts a detachable magazine infers a permanently attached to the state gestapo. Their logic here and is in no more correct than ours, we just never had a court battle on this. You can use the mag lock type devices, but never take out the magazine when the gestapo is around. You need to store the gun with a magazine in always. They can show up and search you and if the gun has a mag lock and the magazine is in, it it locked in place and that is that. Why do they get to do any more?
For those watching, epoxied over bullet buttons are proven legal as the NYSP acted so far on this. Then any other real hard permanent magazine solution pass also. These were seen at the Syracuse and Rochester gun shows. Put some epoxy on your mag lock device and that will fool them even more.
Muzzle devices remain the hardest obstacle for most but I thought, before UNSAFE, they should not of been in NY anyways. If you have no muzzle device, then grip modification is the next best modification. The spur along with a thousand islands trigger guard helps here. This trigger guard has another place to put another finger. The spur alone is not good as hand is unstable. Then there is the BOAR grip, but somehow they think rotating your trigger finger 90 degrees is some how good - wrong. Google search if you need to know what this stuff is. However putting a spur or boar on may make you gun legal for now.
Locked in magazines are also UNSAFE as they need to be removed to properly clear a gun. Never said by our lawyers on our side, they too stupid to talk to real gun people.
We will win in the end. Keep faith.
Why all the trouble? You all seem to agree that AOW thing is legal. Just built that. It's an AR-15 with a front grip, no real butt stock and short barrel. Same shit.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'm getting a headache too because the question still isn't answered. Even with a magazine locking device that does not allow the magazine to be removed, can the device be removed easily along with the magazine? Of course it can. The ARMaglock with the included washer requires one allen wrench to remove it. It can be removed just as easily as you installed it. So your semi automatic firearm is still capable of accepting a detachable magazine. You don't see that?
Again will you get arrested and convicted for it? Probably not. Are stores selling it? Yes. Why? Because it's never been brought up to court. Many stores sold standard bullet button rifles too. No more.
I'm not saying I agree with any of this. I'm just making the point that due to the vagueness of no definition on what constitutes a fixed magazine, any gun that was designed to have detachable magazines with a fixed magazine has the ability to accept another one unless you somehow permanently make it so that you cannot do it at all. It's the law itself and the language it uses that I'm pointing out.
And no. Permanence is not in the law but how else can you make a rifle designed to accept magazines not accept one. Answer. Make it so that it cannot ever.
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Dr. Evil
20×102mm Vulcan
If the corrupt political scum that wrote this dribble of a law could read the 3 pages of this discussion they would sit back, grin and finally laugh. It's just as they'd hope it would be.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yep. That's what vagueness does.
I just got my Fixed magazine AR15 pistol added to my pistol permit. The LEO Agent from the ATF inspected my lower and declared it perfectly legal in regards to the SAFE act. I had the FC Hook on one side. The Prince 50 on the other side with epoxy in both the allen wrench hole and in the larger center hole where the FC Hook screws in. There is no way without a few tools and a good amount of time will someone be able to remove it. Can it all be destroyed, removed and new parts installed...of course. Just like if you sawed off a shotgun barrel. You now made something illegal. It wasn't illegal when you bought it. You modified it and created something illegal. My lower was legal and fixed at the LGS prior to me taking it home.
Or if you add a threaded barrel to your pistol. The condition that my Ar pistol in was declared legal the magazine as the mag can not be removed without major work to the gun.
Anyways here it is
Or if you add a threaded barrel to your pistol. The condition that my Ar pistol in was declared legal the magazine as the mag can not be removed without major work to the gun.
Anyways here it is
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
LEO Agent from the ATF? What are you talking about dude?I just got my Fixed magazine AR15 pistol added to my pistol permit. The LEO Agent from the ATF inspected my lower and declared it perfectly legal. I had the FC Hook on one side. The Prince 50 on the other side with epoxy in both the allen wrench hole and in the larger center hole where the FC Hook screws in. There is no way without a few tools and a good amount of time will someone be able to remove it. Can it all be destroyed, removed and new parts installed...of course. Just like if you sawed off a shotgun barrel. You now made something illegal. It wasn't illegal when you bought it. You modified it and created something illegal. My lower was legal and fixed at the LGS prior to me taking it home.
Or if you add a threaded barrel to your pistol. The condition that my Ar pistol iwas declared legal the magazine can not be removed without major work to the gun. Same as anything else. Anyways here it is
The Judge in Rensselaer County called the LEO Agent from the ATF (Not the examiners) to come and inspect my AR15 Pistol prior to me putting it on my permit.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I've never heard of anything like that. So since the ATF now has jurisdiction on NY compliance laws, can we write them?
It was a pretty simple request. The ATF officer clearly interpreted the fixed mag application. The rest didn't matter. The Judge was satisfied with his answer and so was I. Once the Mag is fixed it is no longer an assault weapon and all the other stipulations no longer apply.I've never heard of anything like that. So since the ATF now has jurisdiction on NY compliance laws, can we write them?
He posted about it in another thread. It convinced the judge. That's all that matters.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That goes to show how fucked this state is. In another county with a more knowledgeable judge, the ATF word would mean nothing.
Actually not true. It turns out there are several County Permit issuing Judges (outside my county) that allow this configuration so that was my argument that if the other Judges allow it why wouldn't mine. He wanted his back covered and that is what he did
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's not my point. My point is that some judges will take an ATF guy's word as legal interpretation and others will not since they know that the ATF cannot interpret NY law.
Anyone can interpret NYS law. What matters though is a judge, DA, NYSP, or local PD accepting the interpretation.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's my point. It's wrong. Only a court can interpret law. The ATF cannot say that our definition of firearm is incorrect.
Uzi
.308 Win
Will, for a second, let's stop talking about mag locks and bullet buttons okay? Let's refer to the allstar tactical or prince magazine (true) lock for a more pertinent example.
Why does it matter how the device to lock the magazine is taken off? If you're modifying something, OF COURSE you'll be able to cut, unscrew, weld, epoxy, file, drill, split, open, melt, bend, rivet, block, jam, flip, twist and whatever on things. The idea of the retarded law is to restrict the user from dropping a magazine and reloading them in while it's functioning in semi automatic mode with an X amount of features listed. Those pieces when installed correctly do just that. Things need to be taken apart sometimes anyways to service the weapon, everyone knows this. What you're pushing seems more like an "intent to" kind of paranoid issue more than anything.
At this point as the law is written it states that a fixed mag doesn't result in an assault weapon. There is no clarification after that. You can argue all you want but that's what it is. If I get into trouble with it I will have my attorney subpoena the ATF agent and the Judge. I am not worried about it. If you don't feel comfortable fixing a mag the way it was done then don't do it. There is no case law on it as of yet and anything else is just speculation and conjecture. The point is the ATF Agent thinks it's legal, The NYS Judge thinks it's legal and that's good enough for me.
