Can 10mm Save the 1911?

[@thewheels]

I think a 10mm 1911 is a great idea. The more options the merrier?
Coonan has the 357 mag version which makes me drool. Did it "save" the 1911?
IMO, 45 acp is at best an average performer with the plethora of bullet and powder options now available for the rest of the players.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Muzzle energy does not mean much to me, 40 lbs more and it more is better..... But the 45 does make a hole in the target that is up to 25% bigger than 9mm and thats more too...

That's true if it makes it through said barrier and if it does if it retains enough velocity for it to penetrate enough to vitals after expanding.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Is there something wrong with flannel shirts?

They are usually worn by men of age who are set in their ways and for whatever reason do not want to adapt to the battlefield around them.

 

[Robin]

Sooooooo many scenario's that one can't possibly prepare for them amp, but my wife is trying, which allows me to just pack my 9mm kurtz. thats a load off!

Thanks honey!
Robin

 

[71velle]

They are usually worn by men of age who are set in their ways and for whatever reason do not want to adapt to the battlefield around them.

I bet you well adapted, wearing your camo gear everywhere you go. Prepared to shoot at the enemy through 3 concrete walls with a pistol. And prefer to put a small hole in the threat rather than a large one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I bet you well adapted, wearing your camo gear everywhere you go. Prepared to shoot at the enemy through 3 concrete walls with a pistol. And prefer to put a small hole in the threat rather than a large one.

No. I wear t-shirts and shorts or jeans and I carry a round that that has no trouble with penetration should the need arise because well I like to be prepared just like anyone who carries knowing that the likeliness of using their pistol is extremely small but do so anyway just in case.

 

[71velle]

No. I wear t-shirts and shorts or jeans and I carry a round that that has no trouble with penetration should the need arise because well I like to be prepared just like anyone who carries knowing that the likeliness of using their pistol is extremely small but do so anyway just in case.

May I ask what you carry?

 

[Marine Cpl]

May I ask what you carry?

Glock 26 loaded with these.

9mm Luger +P+ 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator

Not quite a .357 Sig but almost there. I chose 9mm instead of another caliber due to a cost and availability.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And here are some of those videos. This video here is what got me into getting rid of my Colt Series 70.


945 in the video below.

 

[71velle]

They are usually worn by men of age who are set in their ways and for whatever reason do not want to adapt to the battlefield around them.

I to like the G26 and load with 147 grain +p HST.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I to like the G26 and load with 147 grain +p HST.

Cool. Just drop the flannel shirt. Lol

 

[Upstate43]

Glock 26 loaded with these.

9mm Luger +P+ 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator

Not quite a .357 Sig but almost there. I chose 9mm instead of another caliber due to a cost and availability.

Not all that close to .357 sig, or even .40s&w, if we were to do apples-to-apples comparisons. The .40s&w and .357 sig offer hotter loads which have a distinct advantage over 9mm, even the +P stuff.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Not all that close to .357 sig, or even .40s&w, if we were to do apples-to-apples comparisons. The .40s&w and .357 sig offer hotter loads which have a distinct advantage over 9mm, even the +P stuff.

lol not even close to 40?

9mm 147g +p is 60ftlb away from 180g 40stupidwaste

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not all that close to .357 sig, or even .40s&w, if we were to do apples-to-apples comparisons. The .40s&w and .357 sig offer hotter loads which have a distinct advantage over 9mm, even the +P stuff.

I don't know any .40 loads that go 1350 fps.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I don't know any .40 loads that go 1350 fps.

Sadly i have to jump in and say

i know of a .40 stupid & worthless, that does 1400fps (advertised)

40 S&W 115 Grain Xtreme Defender

 

[Upstate43]

lol not even close to 40?

9mm 147g +p is 60ftlb away from 180g 40stupidwaste

We're talking about +P ammo, which, generally-speaking, exceeds the load parameters that a cartridge and platform was originally designed for.

Comparing +P 9mm (either the 147gr or 115gr Xtreme Penetrator) to +P .40s&w, there is easily over a 100ft-lb difference.

Heavy .40 Smith & Wesson +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
9mm Luger +P+ 147 Grain Bonded Jacket Hollow Point
9mm Luger +P+ 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator

Honestly, if you're going to consistently shoot +P ammo and endure that kind of wear and recoil, you might as well just go to a heavier, faster cartridge.

 

[Upstate43]

I don't know any .40 loads that go 1350 fps.

Velocity by itself does not kill. Velocity combined with the appropriate mass does. .40s&w and .357 sig, generally speaking, have loads with higher energy and momentum figures, even compared to the +P 9mm stuff.

 

[@thewheels]

Sadly i have to jump in and say

i know of a .40 stupid & worthless, that does 1400fps (advertised)

40 S&W 115 Grain Xtreme Defender

No barrel length listed is kinda suspicious

CORBON lists a couple at 1325 from a 4 inch barrel.

40 S&W 135gr Pow'RBall

 

[Marine Cpl]

Velocity by itself does not kill. Velocity combined with the appropriate mass does. .40s&w and .357 sig, generally speaking, have loads with higher energy and momentum figures, even compared to the +P 9mm stuff.

Velocity penetrates hard barriers. That's why I don't like the .45 ACP anymore. To dammed slow.

Energy doesn't kill. Expansion doesn't kill. Penetration to vitals kill.

 

[71velle]

Anything between 9mm and 45 that has been discussed here is plenty effective imo, just pick the pros and cons that go with each. To think there is one best answer for everyone in every situation is crazy.

 

[Upstate43]

Velocity penetrates hard barriers. That's why I don't like the .45 ACP anymore. To dammed slow.

Energy doesn't kill. Expansion doesn't kill. Penetration to vitals kill.

Velocity is simply one factor in the energy and momentum equations. Energy dictates how hard a bullet hits an object. Momentum dictates how well that bullet will move through the target (in addition to other factors like sectional density and bullet construction).

Good penetration results are only achieved when you have the necessary amount of energy and momentum. Expansion depends heavily on bullet construction, for any cartridge type. I suppose you could argue that a projectile with hardly any mass (a sewing needle) could theoretically be accelerated fast enough to generate lethal amounts of energy and decent penetration. But hypothetical discussions aside, when looking at cartridges of comparable mass, as in the case of 9mm and .40s&w or .357 sig, the faster cartridges will produce more energy on target and will have better momentum for pushing through the target. That's why .40s&w developed such a niche for itself; because it did, and still does, offer distinct advantages over 9mm when it comes to barrier penetration. 9mm doesn't suck, but it would be foolish to argue that it offers exactly the same capabilities as .40s&w or .357sig.

And, yes, there are +P 9mm loads that offer increased velocities, and thus higher kinetic energy and momentum. The thing is, when you compare those +P loads to the hotter end of the .40s&w and .357 sig spectrum, the latter still have distinct advantages. Comparing a +P 9mm load to a standard .357 sig or .40s&w load is not apples-to-apples.

I'm not making any proclamation on which cartridge is better. They each have their distinct pro's and con's.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Velocity is simply one factor in the energy and momentum equations. Energy dictates how hard a bullet hits an object. Momentum dictates how well that bullet will move through the target (in addition to other factors like sectional density and bullet construction).

Good penetration results are only achieved when you have the necessary amount of energy and momentum. Expansion depends heavily on bullet construction, for any cartridge type. I suppose you could argue that a projectile with hardly any mass (a sewing needle) could theoretically be accelerated fast enough to generate lethal amounts of energy and decent penetration. But hypothetical discussions aside, when looking at cartridges of comparable mass, as in the case of 9mm and .40s&w or .357 sig, the faster cartridges will produce more energy on target and will have better momentum for pushing through the target. That's why .40s&w developed such a niche for itself; because it did, and still does, offer distinct advantages over 9mm when it comes to barrier penetration. 9mm doesn't suck, but it would be foolish to argue that it offers exactly the same capabilities as .40s&w or .357sig.

And, yes, there are +P 9mm loads that offer increased velocities, and thus higher kinetic energy and momentum. The thing is, when you compare those +P loads to the hotter end of the .40s&w and .357 sig spectrum, the latter still have distinct advantages. Comparing a +P 9mm load to a standard .357 sig or .40s&w load is not apples-to-apples.

I'm not making any proclamation on which cartridge is better. They each have their distinct pro's and con's.

Have you actually seen gel test videos on the subject? You'll find out that in soft flesh after expanding, they penetrate the exact same within inches of one another.

 

[Jaywmustang]

All I know is the 10mm is the best cause I own one!!!! Lol Good discussion, keep it up.

 

[Upstate43]

Have you actually seen gel test videos on the subject? You'll find out that in soft flesh after expanding, they penetrate the exact same within inches of one another.

Well I suppose if we worried about fending off an invasion from gelatinous aliens, those tests would be the final word on how all the cartridges compare with one another. The fact is, those gel block tests are not 100% indicative of how cartridges will perform in real-world scenarios. They are merely one data point, among many, that a gun owner should consider.

And for the record, I'm not saying that .40s&w or .357 sig are better personal defense cartridges compared to 9mm. Having shot plenty of 9mm, I know that it is very capable for self-defense and arguably its higher round count (for areas without magazine restrictions) and lower recoil make it well-suited to a defensive sidearm. But I am pointing out that its ballistics are not the same as the other 2 cartridges.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Well I suppose if we worried about fending off an invasion from gelatinous aliens, those tests would be the final word on how all the cartridges compare with one another. The fact is, those gel block tests are not 100% indicative of how cartridges will perform in real-world scenarios. They are merely one data point, among many, that a gun owner should consider.

And for the record, I'm not saying that .40s&w or .357 sig are better personal defense cartridges compared to 9mm. Having shot plenty of 9mm, I know that it is very capable for self-defense and arguably its higher round count (for areas without magazine restrictions) and lower recoil make it well-suited to a defensive sidearm. But I am pointing out that its ballistics are not the same as the other 2 cartridges.

Those gel tests are indicative. If bullet A penetrates 12 inches and bullet B penetrates 18 inches, you can measure one against the other with repeatable results. That's why gel was created.

As far as how much it will penetrate in a body, those numbers in gel aren't a one to one factor in inches in a body. In gel they'll penetrate more. A .177 BB fired into it at (I can't remember the exact velocity) must penetrate 3 to 4 inches to know if the gel is properly calibrated. That same BB will barely break skin if fired into a live body.

 

[Upstate43]

Those gel tests are indicative. If bullet A penetrates 12 inches and bullet B penetrates 18 inches, you can measure one against the other with repeatable results. That's why gel was created.

They're not indicative of real-world results. People aren't made entirely of flesh and blood (which gel is supposed to replicate). Muscle, bone, clothing, protective gear, barriers, and plenty of other variables can affect a bullet's performance. Gel tests do provide measurable results...those results can serve as a data point, but they are not the end-all-be-all when it comes to determining a particular cartridge's effectiveness.

And if you buy into the modern theories on bullet lethality, the shock (both hydrostatic and hydraulic) associated with a penetrating bullet is just as important as the amount of penetration. Going back to my earlier example, you could theoretically accelerate a sewing needle fast enough to get 100% penetration of an object....it's not going to have the same effects on target as a 125gr .357 sig bullet which penetrates an equal amount.

The differences between a penetrating 9mm and penetrating .40s&w won't be as obvious, but there are still differences nonetheless.

 

[Podmonkey]

This entire thread has it's head up its own ass.

 

[Marine Cpl]

They're not indicative of real-world results. People aren't made entirely of flesh and blood (which gel is supposed to replicate). Muscle, bone, clothing, protective gear, barriers, and plenty of other variables can affect a bullet's performance. Gel tests do provide measurable results...those results can serve as a data point, but they are not the end-all-be-all when it comes to determining a particular cartridge's effectiveness.

And if you buy into the modern theories on bullet lethality, the shock (both hydrostatic and hydraulic) associated with a penetrating bullet is just as important as the amount of penetration. Going back to my earlier example, you could theoretically accelerate a sewing needle fast enough to get 100% penetration of an object....it's not going to have the same effects on target as a 125gr .357 sig bullet which penetrates an equal amount.

The differences between a penetrating 9mm and penetrating .40s&w won't be as obvious, but there are still differences nonetheless.

Ed. I suggest you read the FBI Ballistics Manual. Energy from a low velocity pistol bullet means absolutely nothing. It's too small. That's why thousands upon thousands of people that have been hit in non vital areas survived. If energy played a factor, they'd be knocked out or killed immediately. That isn't the case. Even with rifle bullets it isn't the case in many circumstances.

As far as measurable results go, it's been proven that 12 to 18 inches in gel will reach vitals.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This entire thread has it's head up its own ass.

Myths are hard to unlearn when that's all you've known for the last 20 to 40 years. The information is out there. Even ER trauma doctors can't tell the difference between calibers with pistol wounds.

 

[Uzi]

I don't know any .40 loads that go 1350 fps.

Have you chronoed your Glock 26 with that Xtreme penetrator ammo you're carrying? Odds are you're going to lose a good amount of velocity out of such a tiny short barrel.