Again, I do not know the laws of the state. They were charged with crimes, not sure if they are made up or not in Dearborn Michigan.
Dearborn ,MI Gun Advocates Arrested ?
- Thread starter GOYABEAN
- Start date
Again, I do not know the laws of the state. They were charged with crimes, not sure if they are made up or not in Dearborn Michigan.
I suspect the cops in the station didn't know the laws either. That's the problem.
You are more than likely correct!
spat
.950 JDJ
The real scary part though, is that both sides probably gave the other a legitimate reason to fear for their life.
If the rifles stayed slung, then the cops didn't have a justification to fire, but only just barely. I am sure the 2 idiots had many loaded weapons pointed at them. Having a loaded gun pointed at you qualifies as a legitimate fear for your life by any reasonable definition I can think of.
What these guys did is really stupid IMHO, but the whole incident demonstrates the flaws in our current understanding of justification.
If the rifles stayed slung, then the cops didn't have a justification to fire, but only just barely. I am sure the 2 idiots had many loaded weapons pointed at them. Having a loaded gun pointed at you qualifies as a legitimate fear for your life by any reasonable definition I can think of.
What these guys did is really stupid IMHO, but the whole incident demonstrates the flaws in our current understanding of justification.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
All that aside, what is an AP-14, "Police said officers seized the loaded AP-14 firearm,", I even googled it, I got nuttin, nutting I tell ya!
Robin
Robin
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I haven't finished reading through this whole thread since I last posted in it, but in a situation like this I think they could possibly be charged with menacing.
Because of the way they were dressed and the extremely strange nature of their actions, any reasonable person could assume they were a possible threat.
While carrying a weapon and also concealing your face may not necessarily be an actual crime, those actions or almost always that of somebody with malintent, and therefore any reasonable person would be led to assume they were up to no good.
Should they be charged with a crime? I don't know, but I would think it would be reasonable for the police officers to detain and disarm them until their motives could be identified.
If someone knocked on my door wearing body armor carrying a rifle and wearing a ski mask I am not going to assume that they are trying to convince me to put a new roof on my house, I would assume they are up to no good and I would be forced to respond accordingly.
Because of the way they were dressed and the extremely strange nature of their actions, any reasonable person could assume they were a possible threat.
While carrying a weapon and also concealing your face may not necessarily be an actual crime, those actions or almost always that of somebody with malintent, and therefore any reasonable person would be led to assume they were up to no good.
Should they be charged with a crime? I don't know, but I would think it would be reasonable for the police officers to detain and disarm them until their motives could be identified.
If someone knocked on my door wearing body armor carrying a rifle and wearing a ski mask I am not going to assume that they are trying to convince me to put a new roof on my house, I would assume they are up to no good and I would be forced to respond accordingly.
UpStateEd
.45 acp
You mean the anti cop bunch here! That's why I hate seeing anti law enforcement posts...just feeds the anti cop mentality. BTW: They could have been anti gun folks just trying get bad press for gun owners.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. It's an ongoing joke between @Darth and I.
That should be in the objective case == "Darth and me"
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
[QUOTE="UpStateEd]. BTW: They could have been anti gun folks just trying get bad press for gun owners.[/QUOTE]
That's a good point. Someone should check these guys out on social media and see if they truly are gun people are not.
That's a good point. Someone should check these guys out on social media and see if they truly are gun people are not.
Mr. terzmo
.308 Win
Along time ago,my Son was waiting for his interview for his pistol permit. He was still living at home. It was a wednesday and we were scheduled to shoot trap at the gun club a half mile away. I walked out the door with my shotgun and looked into the driveway and there was a Niagara County Sherriff getting out of his patrol car. He looked at me and I backed into the house leaving the shotgun in the hall and went back outside. He walked up,said Hi and explained he was here to do the permit interview. I asked if he was nervous over seeing the shotgun and his reply was.."not at all" He did the interview and my Son received the carry permit a couple weeks later.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
How about Darth and myself?That should be in the objective case == "Darth and me"
I will say a few more things in regards to this incident...
First, if there is a person out there who thinks it is normal for two masked men to walk into a Police station armed, you have some serious issues and you have no clue about the current threat levels in society.
Second, if anyone were to see this type of action in any other Public Place and it did not phase you in the least, you again, have no idea of the current world in which we find ourselves.
The Police may have handled this poorly, maybe they did not, I was not there so I am not positive. But if they were to have done nothing, they would have been remissed in their duties.
First, if there is a person out there who thinks it is normal for two masked men to walk into a Police station armed, you have some serious issues and you have no clue about the current threat levels in society.
Second, if anyone were to see this type of action in any other Public Place and it did not phase you in the least, you again, have no idea of the current world in which we find ourselves.
The Police may have handled this poorly, maybe they did not, I was not there so I am not positive. But if they were to have done nothing, they would have been remissed in their duties.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I for one believe there is a time and place for everything. While it may be legal to OC a rifle, is it the right tool to do so while food shopping?
Would anyone here hunt squirrel with a .50 Cal?
You could if you want but the right tool should be used for the job. But then again, who am I to say what is the right tool?
It's a common sense issue.
spat
.950 JDJ
The guys didn't get shot, I think the cops were fine in this case, maybe they held them a bit longer than necessary. If nothing else, the masks put it over the top.
spat
.950 JDJ
Whats wrong with hunting squirrels w/ a 50 cal ? I hear prarie dogs are a popular target out west.
Its not like they're going to suffer.....
If it were common place to carry an AR around town in NY State, I would. I carry a handgun for protection, I would do the same with my rifle.
It is not common place, I am not going to get jammed up over something like this. I like to maintain my "Grayness" whenever possible. Unlike the two in the video, I do not need, nor do I want to get everyones attention. Some may be glory hounds; I am not!
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I got my first squirrel with a .50 Cal Muzzleloader, didn't even have to gut it, hah. Almost fifty years ago I use to walk through the village after a Sunday morning goose hunt with my dog and a big old model 12 in hand, heck I got offered rides by strangers, even hot chicks! Times have changed, in the current climate, if I'm police and a couple masked men walk into my station with guns, they're on the floor till I sort things out.
Robin
Robin
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I'm all for open carry advocacy to help normalize open carry. But again, as I, and others have said; wearing ski masks and body armor while doing so portrays an image of someone looking to do bad things.
I never say "myself" myself.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
spat
.950 JDJ
Its all about incremental gains. Get them used to a nice wood bolt gun before springing the ARs and AKs on them....
You don't get someone over a fear of hights by taking them skydiving on the first day....
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
regardless of personal opinions on whether you would do somthing like this or not. What laws where broken? Is it illegal to bring in a long gun, is it illegal to wear a ski mask, is it illegal to wear body armour.
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
$1500 bail ... sounds to me they where not arrested for anything serious, they had to be arrested so police reactions can be legitimized against what must be lawful actions.
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Interesting, considering SWAT officers do it all the time in training sessions. (I know, but, but, BUT)
I USED to see it all the time, then I left my local range. Too many crazies that saw an AR and flipped their lid. Just like...nah, won't say it. Open ARs never bothered me a bit.
The thing cops and their defenders seem to not grasp is that people open carrying do not bother me all that much. I see it all the time, yes, even here in NY.
An open carry at the ready draws concern, but concern != "arrest and ruin your life."
I, as a non exalted citizen, cannot ruin your life because of laws on the books. I can end it, or injure it based on a DEMONSTRABLE (via a trial by jury) threat, but I can't simply ruin it based on a "hunch."
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Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
In ny, if youre carrying a weapon and acting in this manner, a crime IS being committed.
Edit: it could at least be an initial cause for arrest until everything is sorted out.
Penal Law ､ 120.14
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
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Yep, cause everything you typed there is the same as the story being discussed. Alike in every way.
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
It's already know that NY does not respect the right to bear arms. The cops believe a crime was committed, doesn't mean one was committed. I'm familiar with menacing in NY and it doesn't apply to just the bearing of arms. Other criteria and action are required.
The cops "felt" threatened now they have to prove in court that they actually where threatened in order for menacing to stick here in NY. Intent is clearly listed in the law. Supreme court has also established the intent is crucial in whether a crime was committed. If thy intent was protest, No crime was committed.
QUOTE="Celt, post: 108479, member: 8"]In ny, if youre carrying a weapon and acting in this manner, a crime IS being committed.
Penal Law ､ 120.14
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or[/QUOTE]
The cops "felt" threatened now they have to prove in court that they actually where threatened in order for menacing to stick here in NY. Intent is clearly listed in the law. Supreme court has also established the intent is crucial in whether a crime was committed. If thy intent was protest, No crime was committed.
QUOTE="Celt, post: 108479, member: 8"]In ny, if youre carrying a weapon and acting in this manner, a crime IS being committed.
Penal Law ､ 120.14
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or[/QUOTE]
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Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
There are often discussions why people get let go, or plea down, often it's because police arrest based on how they feel which does not jive with fact and the law, so lower charges need to be found to avoid unlawful arrest. Hence why we have the lowest common denominator laws like disturbing the piece an my favorite being arrested for resisting arrest.
No more politics ... i'm going to a happy forum.
No more politics ... i'm going to a happy forum.
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Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
[/QUOTE]
Im a HUGE supporter of the 2a, open carry, constitutional carry, etc.. I also have no problem calling out a douche bag cop, or praising a good one.
In this situation, honestly and objectively, these guys are wrong.
What kind of a person wears a ski mask, body armor , while carrying a gun and walks into a police station? Any "reasonable" person could/would be in fear for their lives. Now, im not a cop or a lawyer, but i could see these guys being arrested for walking into a police station like this. However, once their intent was known i could see letting them go.
So i do agree that intent plays a part, but initially i think officers would be justified to disarm them until their intent was known.