Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So will a .223 assuming you use a bullet that doesn't fragment like a
TSX or some another monolithic type.
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Good AR pattern rifle for deer hunting
- Thread starter Justincase
- Start date
TSX or some another monolithic type.
I bought a .308 bolt action for deer. Why? I knew that I was going to go hunting for other species eventually. I've been elk hunting with it and I'll go for black bear, moose, and caribou eventually as well. No way in hell would I ever think about using a 223/556 for those. If you ever plan on hunting anything else, take that into account.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
My gosh we are now discussing deer asses....
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Yes that is a decent round. the 62 better than the 70gr TSX that is too much penetration, but either ideal? no.
you know I am a huge fan of the 5.56 and other 22 calibers but I have been witness of several mistakes
and I like to explain people that true hunting power is not the main characteristics of the typical
AR15 compact caliber. The 6.8 sets itself apart from the others in terms of wounding and momentum
specially with the 16" barrels people use. The whisper/blackout is a disaster ballistic-ally talking. And the
7.62x39 same problem but it can be pumped a tad more but also limited by range.
Initially the 223 wounding is appropriate but most small AR15 lack of the section, speed and/or momentum to provide
massive hydrostatic shock. Having a higher killing potential give more room for mistakes and reduces
the potential of badly wounding an animal due to poor placement.
In other words you have more things working towards faster killing.
I always think what can I do to anchor the animal where it stands and if I can avoid any unnecessary
suffering or even the potential to loose the game? I am not in survival mode, I do this as a sport to do
the best I can with both my equipment and my practice/skill.
Again, it doesn't mean the 223 cannot be used, in fact it is a lot better than other rounds also people use
but no the ideal deer round. If deer is small a lot better than large buck, mule deer or other species.
Matching calibers to game type and weight is not something someone just came up and it is part of
careful selection of bullets and recipes that professional and ethical hunters use. These recommendations
are based on generations of expertise and reflected by the observations and opinions of people who
has taken thousands of heads of game and make a living by hunting and guiding / educating others.
Because we like something as nice as the 5.56 round to be as good as it can be it doesn't mean it
is the best at everything.
This is not about proving anything or anyone but simply make a more suitable/humane selection.
I built the gunner because I wanted to have true hunting power in the AR15 and not because the other
calibers could not hunt.
You have used Nate's reference before to explain the wounding potential of the 223 that is
amazing. This is a professional hunter who made hundreds of dissections of game and really worth
reading material for anyone interested in the subject. So I think you would also consider his opinions on the
small AR15 calibers for medium game hunting.
.223 Remington
Closing Comments
The .223 Remington/5.56NATO certainly has an interesting military history. As a hunting cartridge, the .223 is a conundrum. Few people have witnessed or truly understand the vast difference between the dramatic terminal performance of tumbling military ball and the slower, lack luster killing which can occur when chest shooting game using conventional soft sporting ammunition. Along with this are the modern super explosive varmint loads, shallow but broad wounding.
In all cases a lot can and does occasionally go wrong when the .223 is used on medium game. It is wise that many states of the U.S do not allow the .223 to be used on medium game. In more lax countries, the .223 is a cartridge that inexperienced shooters often look to when choosing a low recoiling medium game rifle. In truth the .22 centerfires loaded with ‘off the shelf’ varmint ammunition will work best in the hands of highly experienced hunters or youths who have hunted under such tuition in an ongoing manner.
As stated in the .222 text, accurate shot placement, realistic expectations and an understanding of limitations are the keys to success. More information regarding shot placement for the .224’s can be found in the within that text.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
This is a very typical reaction of a deer to the legendary 35 remington...
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So the 70 gr TSX has too much penetration. You mean just like a heavier caliber going at about the same speed. Ok.
Deer don't know momentum and other paper figures. It either expands and penetrates all the way through vitals and out the other side or it doesn't. It's not going to care if one bullet that went all the way through his heart and or lungs while expanding is 70 grains compared to a 110 grains of a larger caliber that also went through.
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Heart and lungs, vitals, yes. That’s what he’s saying. The shot with a smaller, less energy transferring caliber better hit those vitals to result in a clean, quick kill.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Unless you shoot a deer with a cannon, you still need to hit vitals or it runs wounded.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The 70gr tsx is too stout for white tail. Better for pigs that are a lot harder.
the 62gr TTSX is a much better bullet for this caliber like any barnes solid. They work better with more speed.
Like I said wounding could be good but then you don't have the momentum/section to induce the type of hydrostatic shock other
calibers produce.
For white tail including the largest males there are a set of directives that one can observe.
This doesn't mean that there is only one way but it gives some direction in terms of what separates
calibers that work better from those that are not that consistent killers.
Min. HS Speed: 2200-2100fps impact speeds with most bullets. This is not a bout wounding but to produce Hydrostatic Shock.
Min. Recommended speed: 1800-1600. This is the minimum for maximum activation and wounding that is separate from HS.
Min. 1000ft-lb. I think this is a bit arbitrary and as one goes above 338/8mm calibers this can be less.
I think a 200-250 Power factor is a lot more significant specially with a bullet design that can displace a lot of water.
I ideal SD of .200 better above than below. This is also related to the HS that is improved by larger sections and mass (Grain)
Other terminal design considerations to increase wounding potential.
Accuracy. This is always important no matter what caliber. This is an advantage for the 223 that is very accurate for
the neck shots but still there are the challenges of the typical meat saver shot.
Lets do a rough quick assessment at 100 yards:
___________________Speed__________SD______Energy_____Momentum_____
223R 62gr.............. Very good ......so-so........ Good ........so-so..........
223R 75-85gr.......... Very Good .....Good.........Good .........so-so.........
6x45 85gr bt ......... Very Good .... Good........ Good............Good......
6.5 LBC/G 100gr.......Very Good .....Good ....... Very good .... Good.....
6.8SPC II 95gr ....... Very Good ....Good .......Very Good ....Very good....
300 Whisper/BO 110gr.. so-so ........So-so........ good..........So so...
7.62x39 154gr ........ so-so ..... Very good.... Very good ..... Very good.
450 socom 250gr ...... Good ....... Good ........ Good ...........Very good
35 Gunner ..............Very good ....Very good.... Very good. .... Very good..
I think everything starts with decent impact speeds and proper activation to provide
nice wounding but there are other things equally important specially as the game gets larger and tougher.
game with a heart shot can run for many yards into thick brush.
game with the lungs shot can run for hundreds of yards into the forest.
The larger the game the harder it gets.
Boars shot with the 22 caliber will run never to be seen again.
I also used to think the 223 could do anything when I was younger and less experienced.
But then you learn as the years pass.
the 62gr TTSX is a much better bullet for this caliber like any barnes solid. They work better with more speed.
Like I said wounding could be good but then you don't have the momentum/section to induce the type of hydrostatic shock other
calibers produce.
For white tail including the largest males there are a set of directives that one can observe.
This doesn't mean that there is only one way but it gives some direction in terms of what separates
calibers that work better from those that are not that consistent killers.
Min. HS Speed: 2200-2100fps impact speeds with most bullets. This is not a bout wounding but to produce Hydrostatic Shock.
Min. Recommended speed: 1800-1600. This is the minimum for maximum activation and wounding that is separate from HS.
Min. 1000ft-lb. I think this is a bit arbitrary and as one goes above 338/8mm calibers this can be less.
I think a 200-250 Power factor is a lot more significant specially with a bullet design that can displace a lot of water.
I ideal SD of .200 better above than below. This is also related to the HS that is improved by larger sections and mass (Grain)
Other terminal design considerations to increase wounding potential.
Accuracy. This is always important no matter what caliber. This is an advantage for the 223 that is very accurate for
the neck shots but still there are the challenges of the typical meat saver shot.
Lets do a rough quick assessment at 100 yards:
___________________Speed__________SD______Energy_____Momentum_____
223R 62gr.............. Very good ......so-so........ Good ........so-so..........
223R 75-85gr.......... Very Good .....Good.........Good .........so-so.........
6x45 85gr bt ......... Very Good .... Good........ Good............Good......
6.5 LBC/G 100gr.......Very Good .....Good ....... Very good .... Good.....
6.8SPC II 95gr ....... Very Good ....Good .......Very Good ....Very good....
300 Whisper/BO 110gr.. so-so ........So-so........ good..........So so...
7.62x39 154gr ........ so-so ..... Very good.... Very good ..... Very good.
450 socom 250gr ...... Good ....... Good ........ Good ...........Very good
35 Gunner ..............Very good ....Very good.... Very good. .... Very good..
I think everything starts with decent impact speeds and proper activation to provide
nice wounding but there are other things equally important specially as the game gets larger and tougher.
game with a heart shot can run for many yards into thick brush.
game with the lungs shot can run for hundreds of yards into the forest.
The larger the game the harder it gets.
Boars shot with the 22 caliber will run never to be seen again.
I also used to think the 223 could do anything when I was younger and less experienced.
But then you learn as the years pass.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Sorry not my intention to hijack the thread...this is becoming a subject for a different
thread anyway.
thread anyway.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
The 70 gr TSX goes 2850 fps. The hydrostatic shock is there although I don't think it has any effect on wounding other then stretching the permanent wound cavity beyond elasticity.
Many deer have been taken with this round if you search.
Here is just one example. Shattered leg bones and all. There are many more.
The Backwoods Engineer: Hunting: A 223Rem Load for Eastern Deer and Small Hogs
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Ever hear of the "Texas Heart Shot",very popular way to get deer down that way!
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I am calling this claim BS. Someone has to demonstrate to us how you can get 2850fps from a AR even a 24" barrel
and on top they say with H4895 that is too fast for such long bullet. Obviously the guy making this type of claim doesn't
have a clue what he is talking about.
I can load fast with a match chamber and the gated magazines but probably will need a long bolt action in 22 to 24"
and CFE to get it anywhere close to 2900fps.
Even if one gets the bullet lets say above 2700 with other powder and at standard COAL this doesn't make the impact speed
any higher, it only goes down.
The bullet is too stout as reported by ballistics gel. All TSX work the same way but some are more forgiving that
another that is why I mentioned the 62gr TSX because of the extra speed and consistency.
This also doesn't mean the 70tsx cannot work well specially if you catch some bone.
Why they don't open as aggressively? Ask Barnes.
IMO the 62gr ttsx is more consistent for lighter soft skin animals like deer and large goats. A large hog is different.
Again a lot better than anything at 2000fps but there are other factors.
Also we are not saying the 223 cannot do things, It is very capable and more capable than many want to believe but
we are saying it is not the most appropriate round for this specially the larger deer or larger hogs. This is no secret.
So unless one has no option due to whatever circumstances and wants to take more chances or has the experience
and wisdom to let a trophy buck walk away, I think one needs to consider other alternatives.
I think we are just spinning the wheels on this subject.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
just chrond my 223 62g fmj with blc-2 , don't remember off the top of my head the powder charge .. savage 11 bolt , just over 3000fps .. now thats 5 feet
from the muzzle , not at 100 yrds
..
from the muzzle , not at 100 yrds
..
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Midway is BS too then?
Barnes VOR-TX Ammo 5.56x45mm NATO 70 Grain Triple-Shock X - MPN: 31191
How about the load by Hornady? BS too? All their velocity figures from different lengthed test barrels are BS?
Hornadyle.com - 70 gr. GMX® TAP® BARRIER™
Not only that, other reloaders have gotten that speed if you look for it. My point is, this round will take a deer same as any other caliber assuming it's a good shot. It'll expand and penetrate both sides crushing bone in the way. Why wouldn't it be ideal? It expands and penetrates both sides. That's like saying a 9mm or .40 S&W isn't ideal on a human but a .357 Magnum is. They'll both penetrate vitals with full pass throughs if solids are used.
Even with you Gunner round, you have to hit vitals for a DRT unless you are saying that a shot in the ass or foot is all that's needed.
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
DoubleTap's 6.8 TTSX load can equal that velocity with a 35% heavier bullet. Just sayin...
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And what does that heavier bullet achieve? Full passthrough of both sides while expanding? The 70 gr already does that.
You may get slightly larger expansion but both will go through vitals.
but not always.
Someone posted a video a long time ago here, .308 vs a .223 on deer.
the .223/5.56 didn't bring the deer down on the first hit 80% of the time,
but the .308 took down the deer in 1 hit 99% of the time.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Depends on the bullet used. You wouldn't use a low weight frangible bullet in .308 would you? The same goes in .223.
You are also implying that the .308 takes down a deer 99% of the time. Do you know how many wounded deer get away from poor shots with large calibers?
I was talking about the video. Of course people aren't always going to get a good shot on a deer.
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
Margin of error, better terminal performance at longer ranges and from shorter barrels - velocity starts dropping as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel but mass doesn't. KE=mv^2
As said before, it's not that .223 can't do it. It just doesn't have enough to compensate for some of the situations that you'll find when actually hunting. You gotta remember too, that example you linked wasn't a terribly large deer in your example. 17" on a hard quartering shot? Hell, most of the does I shoot are bigger than that.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
All great points. The .223 has to have a fine tuned bullet whereas the .308 doesn't have to. Even a cheapy Walmart bulk pack hollow point would do the job in .308 assuming it expands for the most part within 300 or so yards. Bullet construction and distance are key.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
yes they are BS. Don't you know more times than not advertised load are very optimistic?
It seems they are put them by the marketing guys.
Nobody gets those speeds from factory ammo and of course not any ARs.
I have tested those. I think the hottest are the SSA loads and older corbon that flattens the primers and perhaps you can get past 2800fps with a long bolt action rifle.
Don't send me more links. I have the numbers from my tests.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
And what does that heavier bullet achieve? Full passthrough of both sides while expanding? The 70 gr already does that.
You may get slightly larger expansion but both will go through vitals.
Not all TSX and TTSX work with the same consistency at same speeds and media.
Lets not pull out other calibers. one bullet at the time.
you see the 1,947 fps in the middle. That is unacceptable expansion.
this shows this bullet is stouter than some other calibers based on the same design.
It would be a good bullet for hard game or going trough bones.
It is not uncommon with some of the older TSX designs because the high SD doesn't help
unless you are shooting a very large game and need huge penetration.
The 70gr will penetrate a lot more than the 62gr TTSX and will deliver less permanent cavity.
As the speeds drops it gets worse.
Same thing than the popular 180gr TSX for the 308 or 30-06. Too much penetration and impact speed needed
and why the 150 and 130gr ttsx do so much better unless one is shooting a grizzly where 40 inches of penetration
might be good. Otherwise less wouding and a lot of energy wasted. If you have a magnum then yes but then
it is too much power for the average range.
LOOKS LIKE SOME BULLETS RECOVERED BY HUNTERS WHERE THE ANIMAL TOOK OFF.
I have seen this happened to a person with perfect placement and we could not find the bullet
but also lost the game due to poor choice selection with the 180gr bullet.
Same issue with the accubonds. Not all work the same down to 1800fps.
I don't even know why they say 1800fps minium impact. Not really applicable to that kind of sectional density
and stouter one.
Look at the cutting edge design and then you will see why they are a lot better at the minimum advertised speed.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ok. So I'm to trust what you say over this guy below just because you say so? Is his chrono broken too? Does any of that matter anyways? What difference does it make if instead of 2850 fps from a 20 inch, it does 2700 from an 18 or 2600 from a 16? Is the hydrostatic shock lost?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
just chrond my 223 62g fmj with blc-2 , don't remember off the top of my head the powder charge .. savage 11 bolt , just over 3000fps .. now thats 5 feet
from the muzzle , not at 100 yrds
View attachment 19664
pretty good. with a long bolt action you should be able to get to 3200-3200 w/o problems if you explore other powders like TAC or cfe.
Use hard brass with higher capacity like Lake City nato 09-10 etc.. or WCC ... a lot better to get to nato speeds.
Hard primers too.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
What are you talking about?
I see this youtuber takes 3 shots from a 22" bolt action axis ...
2,824
2,812
2,801
=====
Average 2,812
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That expansion that you are nitpicking is from a 10 inch barrel at 1900 fps at an unknown distance. Stop being ridiculous.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ridiculous. Take a deep breath. You'd argue if it was 2849 fps as if hydrostatic shock would be lost.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
How did we go from 2850 and 2913 fps in link you provided in a 20" AR to a 2800+ on a longer savage bolt action?
Show me one safe load with H4895 for that bullet that can push the bullet to the claimed speeds from an AR.
For the others.... DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
The 70gr TSX is not the most consistent barnes bullet for white tail deer. Already explained.