Good AR pattern rifle for deer hunting

[Marine Cpl]

How did we go from 2850 and 2913 fps in link you provided in a 20" AR to a 2800+ on a longer savage bolt action?

Show me one safe load with H4895 for that bullet that can push the bullet to the claimed speeds from an AR.
For the others.... DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

The 70gr TSX is not the most consistent barnes bullet for white tail deer. Already explained.

Explained by you in contrast to the deer killed by it. Ok Meke. If you want to say that you are right so as to feel better and that there is no hydrostatic shock at 2650 fps from a 16 inch barrel, I will say so.

On second thought. No. You are wrong. A
70 gr TSX from a .223 that expands to .50 and penetrates both sides will do the same damage as a 6.8 TSX that also expands to about the same diameter and also penetrates both sides going at the same velocity.

 

[meketrefe]

That expansion that you are nitpicking is from a 10 inch barrel at 1900 fps at an unknown distance. Stop being ridiculous.

the bullet looks the same whether it strikes at 1900 or 2100fps. It will not open up unless driven to max speeds in ideal conditions
or it hits something hard like bone.

Look online for TSX expansion problems and will see many in the high SD driven well above the minimum impact.
Then look for examples on a bonded like a partition. I bet will not find many.


What did you think about Nate's assessment of the 223R for medium game? you referenced that material and pictures from ballistics
studies before so I though you might be more perceptive to what professional hunters have to say.

come on brother, you are the one who needs to open up the mind a little.

 

[dsdmmat]

http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2016/04/223RemingtonV19ForWeb.pdf

Barnes book data for 70 grain TSX from a 24 inch test barrel (Wiseman barrel)
H4895 Min 21.5 Vel 2623
Max 23.5 Vel 2879

 

[meketrefe]

Explained by you in contrast to the deer killed by it. Ok Meke. If you want to say that you are right so as to feel better and that there is no hydrostatic shock at 2650 fps from a 16 inch barrel, I will say so.

On second thought. No. You are wrong. A
70 gr TSX from a .223 that expands to .50 and penetrates both sides will do the same damage as a 6.8 TSX that also expands to about the same diameter and also penetrates both sides going at the same velocity.

It is not about feeling good. You gave some references that are not realistic. Already explained why.
There is shock but not enough to induce a comma / CNS disruption. The only way is by putting a bullet into the plexus area shooting
through the shoulder that can be tricky in hard angles specially with any of the small AR calibers and don't people go for it to save
the meat. The other is by simply blowing the spinal cord on a neck shot that is perhaps a more humane way for the 223 but
one has to be very accurate and watch out distances. For that a larger number of bullets will do it as any broad wounding
like a 80gr amax even if not deeper si going to do a number. Also there is not much eatable meat there depending how high
one goes.
There is another solid maker that is expensive that is GS customs. I have tried a few in water like xman does but not sure
I can afford too many. I would not use the 223 for that if I can avoid it anyway.

 

[meketrefe]

http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2016/04/223RemingtonV19ForWeb.pdf

Barnes book data for 70 grain TSX from a 24 inch test barrel (Wiseman barrel)
H4895 Min 21.5 Vel 2623
Max 23.5 Vel 2879

That is max. they also use a 1:12 rate for the tests that puts less torque but anyway will not stabilize that bullet.
The 70gr TSX will need a 1:8 twist. If you use a standard AR with 1:9 it will not work and will tumble.

I think one can get close to 2900 and even more but with a larger freebore, longer coal and ideal barrel perhaps
poly rifling or 3R with a 24" bolt action. It all depends on a number of factors but then it will not be AR and will not
be standard load.

 

[meketrefe]

Let me be clear. I like Barnes bullets a lot. But I think there is something to be learned about
how to better use them.

I wish for every beautiful kill people put the ones they missed and it was possible to recover the bullets
and even those who did the kill could show some of the less ideal results in terms of bullet activation.

Do some searches in hunting forums you will find many. I have one somewhere to show you in a little plastic
bag where I keep evidences of past mishaps. I have to see if I can find it somewhere stored in the shop .

7mm




120gr.. still killed but less than ideal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It is not about feeling good. You gave some references that are not realistic. Already explained why.
There is shock but not enough to induce a comma / CNS disruption. The only way is by putting a bullet into the plexus area shooting
through the shoulder that can be tricky in hard angles specially with any of the small AR calibers and don't people go for it to save
the meat. The other is by simply blowing the spinal cord on a neck shot that is perhaps a more humane way for the 223 but
one has to be very accurate and watch out distances. For that a larger number of bullets will do it as any broad wounding
like a 80gr amax even if not deeper si going to do a number. Also there is not much eatable meat there depending how high
one goes.
There is another solid maker that is expensive that is GS customs. I have tried a few in water like xman does but not sure
I can afford too many. I would not use the 223 for that if I can avoid it anyway.

That's been disproven by Dr Fackler and by guys shot in non vital areas oversees. All speed does is stretch the wound cavity beyond elasticity.

Your numbers and charts mean nothing to the deer killed by those bullets repeatedly and your velocity figures mean nothing to the guy who consistently gets 2650 fps from his 16in barrel and still crushes bone, heart, lungs, liver, and the fur on the other side with the 70 gr.

 

[meketrefe]

with the perfect ballistics gel, perfect rifle and perfect speed everything looks awesome.
That is great for the marketing. It would be good for a 22-250 with the 8 twist and extra freebore driven to hyper speeds.

but real life is not perfect.

 

[meketrefe]

That's been disproven by Dr Fackler and by guys shot in non vital areas oversees. All speed does is stretch the wound cavity beyond elasticity.

Your numbers and charts mean nothing to the deer killed by those bullets repeatedly and your velocity figures mean nothing to the guy who consistently gets 2650 fps from his 16in barrel and still crushes bone, heart, lungs, liver, and the fur on the other side with the 70 gr.

You are saying professional hunters like that nate guy you like are wrong? Come on mang!!

Open your mind...

otherwise we will have to tell @Darth to have a chat with you in private. It can get rough.

 

[Marine Cpl]

with the perfect ballistics gel, perfect rifle and perfect speed everything looks awesome.
That is great for the marketing. It would be good for a 22-250 with the 8 twist and extra freebore driven to hyper speeds.

but real life is not perfect.

Is a kill with one less perfect?

 

[meketrefe]

Yes, the key is to suck less every day. LOL

Just in case someone is wondering .....

- Why a 70gr bullet like this cannot go faster?
- Why it needs a 1:8 twist?

The answer is because these bullets do not have any lead. They are made of a single piece
of copper alloy so they are a lot longer than any other 70gr bullet and they take a lot of space from the case.
Also because they are longer they need a faster rate of twsit to stabilize than other bullets with lead inside
of the same and even higher weight. The length and shape construction is what determines the twist. Speed too.
Also the larger bearing surface and harder / stouter construction offers more resistance when going trough the rifling so this also contributes to not allowing more speeds realistically.

Of course the loads can be tuned and using a bolt action and longer free-bore can be pumped.

I have tests and hunting reloads if anyone interested. But I think the 62gr TTSX does so much better.


Here the 70gr TSX is longer than many 77gr match loads as you can see below. So if you want to reload it might be wise
to start with a low load for one of those 77gr match to be used by the 70gr to work on reloading.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Enough with your charts already. They mean nothing.

Do you remember that time when you kept wrongly arguing that if you put a stock on a registered Glock pistol that it would be legal because it's a registered pistol?

We went on all night. It was like 12 pages. I can do that again and repeatedly tell you that your velocity numbers, momentum figures, hydrostatic shock, ECT mean nothing to the deer killed with those bullets.

 

[meketrefe]

Enough with your charts already. They mean nothing.

Do you remember that time when you kept wrongly arguing that if you put a stock on a registered Glock pistol that it would be legal because it's a registered pistol?

We went on all night. It was like 12 pages. I can do that again and repeatedly tell you that your velocity numbers, momentum figures, hydrostatic shock, ECT mean nothing to the deer killed with those bullets.

Length and grain of the bullet means nothing when discussing loads? ... You are funny.
Those dead do not care but the wounding and lost never posted in pictures nor discussed do.
If one thinks most AR15 rounds are great deer rounds and they are legal where you hunt, go ahead.

 

[Yeti]

You can fix all the problems with just using this in the woods,fully legal and if you wound one then its your own fault not the gun!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Length and grain of the bullet means nothing when discussing loads? ... You are funny.
Those dead do not care but the wounding and lost never posted in pictures nor discussed do.
If one thinks most AR15 rounds are great deer rounds and they are legal where you hunt, go ahead.

No. I don't think it's funny. I just think charts don't kill deer. Penetration to vitals do. Hell, even scoped .357 Magnums do the job assuming you are close enough. I give up.

 

[Bushmaster]

HAh Ha.... gee if ya want big enough AR platform for sure just go find a 50 Beowulf

 

[Bushmaster]

No. I don't think it's funny. I just think charts don't kill deer. Penetration to vitals do. Hell, even scoped .357 Magnums do the job assuming you are close enough. I give up.

22lr kills Deer, 22Mag is the prized poacher scoped rifle at 100yrds beside ear, it's lights OUT!!! I did LEGAL jobs at farms years ago with 22 center Hornet and a 222 rifle.... Was lights out !!! on SPOT !!! Not a deer gun by no means, but placement is everything in those jobs..

 

[Marine Cpl]

22lr kills Deer, 22Mag is the prized poacher scoped rifle at 100yrds beside ear, it's lights OUT!!! I did LEGAL jobs at farms years ago with 22 center Hornet and a 222 rifle.... Was lights out !!! on SPOT !!!

I knew that .22 behind the left ear would come eventually. I'm talking about calibers that penetrate both sides of the deer in the vital area given a reasonable distance for that specific caliber to do that.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe was not the AR ( M-16) accepted because of its wounding and not really killing ... put 10 guys on the ground .. tie up other guys dragging them off to the hospital to keep more guys busy patching them up .

 

[Marine Cpl]

@meketrefe was not the AR ( M-16) accepted because of its wounding and not really killing ... put 10 guys on the ground .. tie up other guys dragging them off to the hospital to keep more guys busy patching them up .

And in Korea, the .30 Carbine couldn't penetrate the North Koreans frozen winter coats.

In the Philippines, the .45 ACP spun the drugged up tribesman like a top and finally turned the tide of the war.

 

[Airborneguy]

And then the shoulder thing that goes up came along and made all previous firearm technology obsolete.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And then the shoulder thing that goes up came along and made all previous firearm technology obsolete.

Correct.

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe was not the AR ( M-16) accepted because of its wounding and not really killing ... put 10 guys on the ground .. tie up other guys dragging them off to the hospital to keep more guys busy patching them up .

I heard of this but if you look at the wounding forensics is pretty devastating. Even at 300 yards is more consistent than the AK that might result
in pin hole wounding. The M193 is not as effective and consistent as more modern bullets but it displays the typical behavior of fmjs obviously with
very good hard barrier penetration at short distances due to the speed. also the modern twist rate has increased substantially so this has an impact on
the tumbling vs. the original M16.

 

[Airborneguy]

Welp shot the AR-10 today. Beast. I was shooting military ball ammo. I thought it would absorb more recoil with the A2 stock. Woah! Fun though. Definitely a deer choice for AR rifles.

 

[dsdmmat]

Welp shot the AR-10 today. Beast. I was shooting military ball ammo. I thought it would absorb more recoil with the A2 stock. Woah! Fun though. Definitely a deer choice for AR rifles.

Not the type of rifle you put your nose on the charging handle with is it?

 

[Airborneguy]

Haha nope. Im back about an inch.

 

[zzrguy]

I'm building a 6.5 Grendel. I chose it for a couple of reasons.
1 I have a ton of 6.5 bullets.
2 all I need to reload it is a die set I have everthing else.
3 it has a wide range of bullet weights and load for game from predator to white tail.
4 Ammo is easier to come by then the 6.8.

Let talk 6.5 Grendel

 

[zzrguy]

This is a very typical reaction of a deer to the legendary 35 remington...

I like the 35 Remigton I've seen it stop black bears DRT.

Funny everyone now want to take the MSR in the deer woods. It seems a good time to resurrect the 30AR with new powder and some rework this could and should be a good deer cartridge

 

[ManrisFrack]

I like the 35 Remigton I've seen it stop black bears DRT.

Funny everyone now want to take the MSR in the deer woods. It seems a good time to resurrect the 30AR with new powder and some rework this could and should be a good deer cartridge

Isn't 30AR brass rare as hen's teeth? You know Remington isn't gonna bring it back to life. Once they abandon something, they don't come back to it.

 

[Airborneguy]

Thinking of these for the AR-10. I use the same bullet for 7.62x39 hunting.