Gun maker’s exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters

[livingston]

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — It was the opening day of deer hunting season, and Ronald Hansen says he loaded his rifle the same way he had countless times before, aimed at a target and fired a shot.

This time, the gun barrel exploded, knocking the farmer from Hampton, Iowa, backward, severely damaging his right hand and ear and burning his face.

Unknown to Hansen, the manufacturer of the rifle that injured him in 2014 had received other complaints of explosions and injuries over the prior decade. Customers repeatedly reported that the barrel of the stainless steel 10 ML-II muzzleloader exploded, burst, split or cracked, according to thousands of court documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters

 

[freddy]

 

[Prudii]

Ouch, and that's why Ive started wearing gloves in addition to ear and eye pro.

 

[togmaster]

Ouch, and that's why Ive started wearing gloves in addition to ear and eye pro.

What would gloves have done for the guy pictured above? No much.

 

[freddy]

Ballistic gloves. Duh!

 

[CaseHardened]

CVA / Traditions / Conneticut Valley Arms has had extremely scary issues over the years Dangerous Muzzleloaders , but this problem with Savage is a new one to me.

Gun maker's exploding rifle leaves trail of injured hunters

Far too many old-tech replicas are manufactured as if they were no more than WALL QUEENS - purely decorative.

That's why I personally would NEVER buy any Cap & Ball Revolver other than Pietta (good) or Uberti (better).

RESEARCH before you purchase these things !!!!

 

[Magnus]

What would gloves have done for the guy pictured above? No much.

It would spare me from having to look at his disfigured hands.

 

[Magnus]

I was coming in to tell you that nobody tells me what to do but just this once, I will allow it.

 

[Bananabandit]

Muzzleloaders...i aint got that kind of time to reload that

 

[CaseHardened]

I was coming in to tell you that nobody tells me what to do but just this once, I will allow it.

I've even read awful tales of TOKAREV's failing with Sellior & Bellot 7.62 X 25, but at least to my recollection the damage ended at the pistol.

Hell, even Glocks fail.

But too many replicas are pure shit - ESPECIALLY MADE IN SPAIN !!!

 

[CaseHardened]

Muzzleloaders...i aint got that kind of time to reload that

The nice thing is, in many states, these are totally under the radar.

If the SHTF, and CONFISCATION begins, these are undocumented ...... (fill in the blanks).

 

[Bananabandit]

The nice thing is, in many states, these are totally under the radar.

If the SHTF, and CONFISCATION begins, these are undocumented ...... (fill in the blanks).

But if I lose fingers, with no hospital available...im better off throwing rocks

 

[CaseHardened]

Rocks killed a Border Patrol Agent last month.

Dramatic spike in violent attacks against US border agents provokes outrage

But only because they are prohibited from firing back.

I'm not making THAT mistake.

 

[thegatman]

I wonder if they are using smokeless powder?

 

[Robin]

Those Savage ML's are not replicas. They are a smokeless powder stainless steal ML, An accident waiting to happen.
Most ML failure's are like most any gun failure, operator error.
Robin

 

[dubleuhb]

I wonder if they are using smokeless powder?

That's what those were designed for.
Have a buddy who bought one when they first came out, he never could get it to shoot any better than my Omega.

 

[ManrisFrack]

Okay, first... the pic is of a guy that used a Savage 10-ML II. It's designed specifically to use smokeless powder. Bad idea IMO - it's much more energy dense and your margin of error is smaller.

Second, most of the stuff listed in the "Dangerous Muzzleloaders" link is probably overcharged by the user. You're essentially a reloader on every shot - it isn't for the stupid or careless. I don't use Triple Seven but I know it's hotter than Pyrodex. I'd never run to the range with a brand new gun and dump a max charge of that down the barrel. Cardinal rule of reloading is to work up from known mild loads for every single load and gun. Why should muzzleloaders be any different?

 

[CaseHardened]

Okay, first... the pic is of a guy that used a Savage 10-ML II. It's designed specifically to use smokeless powder. Bad idea IMO - it's much more energy dense and your margin of error is smaller.

Second, most of the stuff listed in the "Dangerous Muzzleloaders" link is probably overcharged by the user. You're essentially a reloader on every shot - it isn't for the stupid or careless. I don't use Triple Seven but I know it's hotter than Pyrodex. I'd never run to the range with a brand new gun and dump a max charge of that down the barrel. Cardinal rule of reloading is to work up from known mild loads for every single load and gun. Why should muzzleloaders be any different?

It's always a mistake to trust a cheap-assed POS with your life.

Mebe 999 out of 1000 of these things are safe.

You want to the chance ?

Not me.

Are your hands and eyes worth an extra $300 ?

But fine - I'm a messenger. Not an enforcer.

 

[CaseHardened]

Those Savage ML's are not replicas. They are a smokeless powder stainless steal ML, An accident waiting to happen.
Most ML failure's are like most any gun failure, operator error.
Robin

Very few Modern Cap & Ball or Flintlock firearms are actual part-for-part replicas.

Many are made for re-enactors and those that appreciate retro tech.

But others, like this Savage, are made simply to comply with absurd Hunting Seasons and Hunting Laws.

If the laws made sense, the re-enactor market would not diminish - but very, very few would hunt with a Muzzleloader if they were able to hunt the same game in the same season with a REAL GUN.

 

[Greywolf224]

Do they come with a bump stock?

 

[HEX]

threads merged

 

[Robin]

Very few Modern Cap & Ball or Flintlock firearms are actual part-for-part replicas.

Many are made for re-enactors and those that appreciate retro tech.

But others, like this Savage, are made simply to comply with absurd Hunting Seasons and Hunting Laws.

If the laws made sense, the re-enactor market would not diminish - but very, very few would hunt with a Muzzleloader if they were able to hunt the same game in the same season with a REAL GUN.

So, whats your point? If bow hunters had to use equipment like I use there probably wouldn't be a bow season. I have no problems with people that choose modern technology in order to participate in a special season. I don't characterize that equipment as inherently unsafe either. Well, maybe that smokeless powder ML is, but I do believe if you stay within the parameters of the manufacturers recommendations, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem is the guy that might get a bit distracted and maybe he double charges, with black powder this situation will give him a healthy jolt, with smokeless powder you now have a pipe bomb. Same with not seating the projectile properly, BOOM!!!
I don't see these guns at the range anymore, but when they did, I would leave. I didn't want to shoot next to them, to me the inherent danger was obvious.
Robin

 

[stuck in ny]

So, whats your point? If bow hunters had to use equipment like I use there probably wouldn't be a bow season. I have no problems with people that choose modern technology in order to participate in a special season. I don't characterize that equipment as inherently unsafe either. Well, maybe that smokeless powder ML is, but I do believe if you stay within the parameters of the manufacturers recommendations, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem is the guy that might get a bit distracted and maybe he double charges, with black powder this situation will give him a healthy jolt, with smokeless powder you now have a pipe bomb. Same with not seating the projectile properly, BOOM!!!
I don't see these guns at the range anymore, but when they did, I would leave. I didn't want to shoot next to them, to me the inherent danger was obvious.
Robin

The problems here were from poor-quality replicas. I can attest that the Long Land musket and pattern 1853 enfield rifle I've shot were most definitely "real guns" as I've sure countless soldiers from that era could.

 

[Robin]

The only poor quality replica's, as far as shoot ability I am aware of are made in India. As for poor authenticity replicas, well there is a shit ton of them from here and abroad, but people for the most part don't know the difference, and don't care. A good example would be the Thompson Center 'Hawkin' which looks no more like an original Hawkin than a 56 chevy looks like a 56 ford. Both good quality and will get you where you want to go but look nothing alike.
Robin

 

[Glenn B]

The company acknowledged in Hansen’s case that it received 45 legal claims related to burst or split barrels dating to 2004. Hansen’s lawyers say documents show Savage Arms created a special “muzzleloader return team” and faced hundreds of warranty and service claims.

Seems like an awful lot of claims about burst or split barrels for one particular model gun. Either a lot of idiots buy those guns or maybe there just could be something to the claim that the metal of the barrels is unsound. It also seems odd that there were hundreds of warranty/service claims for one particular model if that model was not in some way faulty.

Some hunters were offered free replacement rifles after they were told their errors caused the damage.

Add to that the alleged fact that while Savage blamed user error, they also offered some folks replacement rifles and it makes one wonder why would Savage offer replacements if the shooters were at fault. Were they trying to appease folks whose guns had barrels gone bad so they would not file lawsuits or were they doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

In Palatka’s case, a federal magistrate in 2015 sanctioned the company for a “purposeful record of obfuscation” that included falsely claiming that it was aware of only two prior explosions while withholding information that showed otherwise.

Then there is the obfuscation issue from the earlier case, Savage allegedly claiming many fewer incidents than of which they allegedly were actually aware and a magistrate judge reportedly calling them on it.

I am not saying Savage is at fault here but this does not look good for Savage in my opinion.

 

[Robin]

I don't know if the metal was bad for that purpose but I do remember centerfire guns, stainless steel barrel problems, especially in frigid conditions. Either way I think it was a bad idea from conception, but Savage was appealing to people that wanted to hunt that extra season with what amounts to a modern center fire rifle, and like most modern hunters, don't like cleaning their guns.
Robin

 

[meketrefe]

I've even read awful tales of TOKAREV's failing with Sellior & Bellot 7.62 X 25, but at least to my recollection the damage ended at the pistol.

Hell, even Glocks fail.

But too many replicas are pure shit - ESPECIALLY MADE IN SPAIN !!!

Replicas of what?

 

[CaseHardened]

Replicas of what?

Replicas of anything.

Spanish firearms suck.

 

[meketrefe]

Replicas of anything.

Spanish firearms suck.

I don't know about replicas but many firearms from Spain are very well made on average.
Not jut modern but classic ones some with centuries old tradition for gun making like rifles and shotguns.
We can put a list of 20 or 30 firearms makers and models that rate on top in their categories.
I am sure there are some models not so good but not different than other makers.
Even Remington makes some models that score below average.

 

[Robin]

The Spanish proof test their ML barrels, they are usually excellent shooters, the style of their replicas is just close enough to capture the imagination of the unlearned in this field, but generally they make good solid ML's.
Robin