Hunting Ammo Killing Power

[Marine Cpl]

Yep. I think the TSX is the best rifle bullet created. It expands to double it's size and doesn't shed weight by fragmenting insuring maximum penetration.

Who wants fragments in their meat?

Yes I'm replying to myself. I also think in .223, the TSX is optimal to all others because it doesn't fragment.

Oversees, the green tip and the SOST round doesn't do well against barriers like mud bricks and walls. They fragment once they hit those soft objects. An all copper bullet like the TSX will fragment little if any at all.

 

[meketrefe]

If they are the same speeds than the heavier will penetrate further.

If they both however have complete pass through on the deer which I would imagine so then it doesn't really matter. The next factor you'd have to consider is expansion size.

The logic is good but I have to confess I have thrown a bit of a curve ball here.
I have witnessed this situation first hand. Shooter shoots deer, deer runs away limping never to be seen again.
I ask the shooter what did you shoot it with? He says I used a 180gr TSX a top of a nice column of varget from the 308.
My first reaction is oh! you know what happened right?

This is the thing....

TSX - TTSX are amazing bullets no doubt. Like any copper bullets they are longer for the same grain so a 180gr TSX is A LOT longer
than the 180gr lead core counterparts. Given the bullet stabilizes properly this bullet takes a lot of room from the case in order
to be efficient from a 308. These bullets activate pretty fast but IMO the activation is a function of the media they hit, speed
and sectional density.
In this case the deer was hit but it was a complete pass through wiht minimum activation that is unusual for the TSX but there
are several indicators why.
In order to achieve similar impact velocities one should use a lighter solid bullet in the sense that no much room is stolen for
powder and also the weight and bearing surface is too much to be efficient.
A 180gr TSX will provide very deep penetration with lots of momentum and stout solid construction. Because it is a long monolitic
bullet the expanding petals are not larger than a ligther TSX yet the SD and momentum is larger and speed is slower therefore
the parachute will not deploy as fast and will need more runway to stop.
If we add to this factor you are shooting a soft skin relatively soft animal (a human would be the same) this is hardly the ideal
situation as the bullet quickly pass trough even with smaller wounding.
Even if this was a large bore that is a lot harder meat still might not be a large enough animal to be efficient.
The lighter Soft point (even with some fragmentation but lets leave this aside for now) by design will collapse quickly and
deploy more energy faster along with the wounding.
I think we should also see the same effect with a lither TSX like a 150gr. While the sd and momentum might be lower the
bullet should activate faster and better and decelerate much faster that will result in broad wounding and faster dump
of energy.
IMO the 180gr TSX is too much for a 308 and better left for a caliber like a 300 win mag or WSM. Those will put enough
speed to activate faster but then it comes the situation of the target at hand and why we do not care about overkilling
we also don't want to ruin the animal and leave little meat to eat. If the animal is hit with a 180tsx and winmag on
the shoulder we migth say good bye to a lot of eateable meat as we might put a see through hole in the animal.
This is the case with other 180gr bulelts at massive speeds too including fragmentation and lead that is even worse.

So I would leave the 180gr TSX for the magnums and very large animals like a moose, vison and even a large brown
bear (dangerous animal). The 308 will benefit greatly from the additional speed of a lighter solid bullet specially
for this type of animal. With medium and heavy game I like to keep sectional density above .2 that is kind of an
unwritten rule related with successful fast kills but in the case of solids even with a tad less sectional density (weight)
it is compensated with the stoutness and faster+wider activation of the bullet.

Also as the calibers go up the activation speeds come down due to the frontal section being more active part of the
wound channel and deceleration factors.

A 130gr TTSX from a 308w can put massive speed and while the sd is shy of .2 and G1 a modest .35 the 308 with
faster powders might be able to put 3100fps from a 21" barrel.

Even if we take 3000fps this will put massive speed at 200 yards assuring fast activation and energy dump pretty
suitable for while tail but also hogs due to the stoutness of the bullet.





Therefore in the example I presented the 150gr BT would be a much better choice even at modest velocities
when we understand the inadequacies of something that might seem bigger and better at first.

What are the lessons from this:

- Less might become more in reality.
- Importance of speed on the target and matching bullets and bullet design to body type and weight.
- Important of stout bullets that stay together and consistent even in presence of tougher animals and bone.


In the case of the 130gr TTSX I have to say that this bullet will not only create proper wounding
but also faster more dramatic hydraulic shock that is one of the things people
tend to overlook and the key differentiation between running away game and DRT.

There is also an unwritten rule about the ideal impact velocities but manufactures often
publish too optimistic results when those are compared with information coming directly from
hunters and their experiences.

The unwriten rule shows that the smaller the caliber the better we do with more speed.
In the 30 caliber we should strive to keep the striking speed above 2,100fps in order to see
not just wounding but that shock we are looking for.

Obviously this changes from one bullet model to another and we find exceptions but
in general 2,100fps seems like a number experienced hunters seem to agree upon.
When I say experienced hunters I am not talking about us but folks who are hunting
guides and professionals that have taken game by the thousands of heads of game
of all types all over the world. I am in communication with a couple of these folks
and in the hunting forums for that reason.

When one needs surgery one goes to a surgeon so in my opinion these hunter's and guides
knowledge about bullets and terminal forensics is invaluable.

The issue is how to reflect some of these factors in a ranking table and also make
sure it is applied in a simple meaningful way so we can provide an easy way for
the average guy to make wise decisions regarding ammo and bullet choices.

please lets be clear that we should not shy away from anything with 308w 180gr solid
or bonded as they might be a use for it. I would think a 180gr tsx from 308 at close
range and very large animal will work a lot better. Also some specific solids
might activate faster and better than the mentioned above. The 180gr nosler
partition is also a nice bonded round for large game with better speeds than
the longer solids.

But we concluded we don't need this to take a white tail and there are much
better more forgiving and also more economical options.

I hope this all makes sense.

 

[spat]

I like the idea of testing at least some limited yet meaningful testing. Specially with new bullets that come out or
to test the capability of a given bullet intended for one use to see how it works but this will be limited due to time
and budget.
Also I think there is enough forensic information to create a meaningful ranking criteria for most bullets in the market
if not all. This could start with the well known bullets and also a rough estimate that will be refined as we move
forward.

Your thoughts?

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak. There is a lot of complexity to terminal ballistics, and and attempt to distilled hat down to a few simple parameters is going to be an exercise in tradeoffs. Exterior ballistics can be very precisely characterized with a small number of parameters, the holy grail would be something like that for terminal ballistics.

Maybe you just take all the data you can get your hands on, including some sort of real world statistical results, and run the numbers for the coorelation. Maybe you can find out which ones have predictive value and which ones don't. After that you can try to eliminate or consolidate them into a useful figure.

The hard part is coming up with some objective measure to compare them to. Once you decide what "good performance" is more precisely than a "I know it when I see it" sort of thing, then you can try to find some widely published data that predicts that, but at this point it's almost like trying to come up with a "tastes good" scale for marinades. There's some obviously good stuff, and some obviously bad stuff, but even getting people to agree on ranking specific test results is a lost cause.

 

[ECU Pirates]

"
I have witnessed this situation first hand. Shooter shoots deer, deer runs away limping never to be seen again.
I ask the shooter what did you shoot it with? He says I used a 180gr TSX a top of a nice column of varget from the 308.
My first reaction is oh! you know what happened right?"

He made a bad shot? Any .308 in the right place will do the job as you know. He could have done the same thing with a 150 or 130 ect. and had the same result. That being said I agree that many buy into the heavy for caliber premium bullets for deer. Not needed in my opinion. Deer are easy to kill. Somehow people now think a 30-30 is worthless and you need a belted mag to drop a deer.

 

[meketrefe]

"

Great shooter, no wind, I have no reason to believe he didn't hit the deer . Great bullet but totally wrong bullet for the case and job though.

 

[Marine Cpl]

@meketrefe , I think I see what you are saying. So in .223, TSX the 62gr would be better compared to their 75gr due to the higher velocity for softer targets. IE deer, people.

The 75gr may indeed penetrate more in soft tissue due to more momentum because it's heavier but how much soft tissue is there in a body? IE deer, people

With the light and faster 62gr that is faster due to weight and more powder, it'll expand about the same diameter as the 75gr but because it is faster, it'll expand more violently.

I think that's what you are saying.

 

[meketrefe]

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak. There is a lot of complexity to terminal ballistics, and and attempt to distilled hat down to a few simple parameters is going to be an exercise in tradeoffs. Exterior ballistics can be very precisely characterized with a small number of parameters, the holy grail would be something like that for terminal ballistics.

Maybe you just take all the data you can get your hands on, including some sort of real world statistical results, and run the numbers for the coorelation. Maybe you can find out which ones have predictive value and which ones don't. After that you can try to eliminate or consolidate them into a useful figure.

The hard part is coming up with some objective measure to compare them to. Once you decide what "good performance" is more precisely than a "I know it when I see it" sort of thing, then you can try to find some widely published data that predicts that, but at this point it's almost like trying to come up with a "tastes good" scale for marinades. There's some obviously good stuff, and some obviously bad stuff, but even getting people to agree on ranking specific test results is a lost cause.

Wise words in deed. I am taking note.
The thing is the ranking is a factor of the target. like the one bullet might be good for hogs and deer of light weight up to 300lbs but not another with the same grain and speed is not ideal for the hogs like the some sst or bt that can break down too much.
I think I have enough data in many bullets and animals to at least get started and prove the methodology, then it is a matter of working on them.
I read everything I can get my hands on from hunting world and specially terminal forensics.

Nathan Foster form NZ has put a nice website and few small books also worth visiting ...

Extensive Field-Tested Rifle & Cartridge Research - BallisticStudies.com

Tests like the mentioned above from xman in 270/6.8 are also great sources.

No one single person has the answer but the value we get is the result of the collective approach.

I think the classification should be done in a very pragmatic and systematic way because there is a lot of misleading information online too.

I was thinking perhaps the ranking could be as easy as a simple multiplier based on effectiveness for the intended game animal so we don't have
to overwhelm with all other attributes.

for example if we rate that 130gr TSX on deer we could rank like this.

S1,S2 = small game up to 50lbs S1 being the softest and easiest and S2 being the largests/harder.
M1,M2 - Medium up to 300lbs
L1,L2 - Large up to 3000lbs
XL1,XL2 - Very Large and/or Dangerous. A charging hipo bull would fall in XL2.

1 being poor choice
2 being limited
3 being ideal and beyond




By the same token we could highlight where the bullet /speed shines
just like this... M1-333 / M2-333

simply an idea. I am just thinking out loud here.

The good thing about bullets is that many bullets of the same construction tend to behave the same way
like for example a 130gr TTSX from a 308 behaves pretty much like a 120gr TTSX from a 7mm-08.
Also when we know the striking speeds and speed ranges of a bullet then we can project any calibers shooting the same
bullet. Only bullets matter the rest is just the means of delivery.

thoughts?

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe , I think I see what you are saying. So in .223, TSX the 62gr would be better compared to their 75gr due to the higher velocity for softer targets. IE deer, people.

The 75gr may indeed penetrate more in soft tissue due to more momentum because it's heavier but how much soft tissue is there in a body? IE deer, people

With the light and faster 62gr that is faster due to weight and more powder, it'll expand about the same diameter as the 75gr but because it is faster, it'll expand more violently.

I think that's what you are saying.

It depends on the speed. If you shoot lets say the 70gr TSX from a 22-250 given you have the right twist you might put the same speed and a tad
more momentum in the target as you would with a 223 shooting the 62gr tsx.
But because the 70gr TSX takes too much space and we decided that speed gives us more in exchange then in the case of a 223 casing the 62gr will
defenetly be more effective at dumping energy.
Also something I noticed wiht the small calibers TSX is tha the tip in the TTSX gives extra ballistic coefficient and in some cases faster activation
although we are talking about 1 or 2 inches might be enough for small to make even a more efficient pattern.
So yes! 62gr a great choice for a 223. In fact I think it is the perfect bullet for a lot of uses including tactical situations. for this the TSX is also great as the tips will not offset the path when hitting car glass in an angle and they seem to bite better in the car glass although this might be negligible and subject to close observation wiht high speed cameras. But you know how hard to defeat car glass can be specially in sharp angles. So something to consider. Speed is key here like in many other situations.

Edit: Some might consider the 70gr in large boars like shooting at an angle and though the bones for additional penetration but it is also questionable since the 62gr will do well both the hogs and deer.
Just to make sure we understand each other I am not endorsing the use of these rounds for deer hunting. Of course they can be used like the AK and other rounds but they are not designed for this.
Run the HITS index and will show where they fall. We know we don't always have to follow the rules to the T if we know what we are doing and take neck shots or follow other considerations but at the same time we have to keep it real if we want to do things by the book and assure ethical fast kills. That is what triggered my interest and need for research in the first place.

 

[holdover]

I would like to see governor Cuomo prove you wrong by demonstrating as a target. Two shots might do it But I think you still have to drive a fucking stake through his hart. (just to be sure he doesn't rise from the dead. )

 

[meketrefe]

@holdover
I would change your comment above. I know you are joking but a brainless creature might see this differently. Who knows who is reading.

 

[holdover]

Nahhhh ,,,,, I'll keep it . Even NYSP have a sense of humor.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe on " if we know what we are doing and take neck shots or follow other considerations but at the same time we have to keep it real if we want to do things by the book and assure ethical fast kills." ... what about head shots ? i think lots of hunters think that is taboo ... I just seen a video done with a DR. explaining what happens with a head shot .. why you see the animal flopping around .. are they in pain ??? or not ?? .. I'll have to find that vid if you haven't seen it and post.

 

[meketrefe]

Yep. I think the TSX is the best rifle bullet created. It expands to double it's size and doesn't shed weight by fragmenting insuring maximum penetration.

Who wants fragments in their meat?

GS custom are also very well designed. Fragmentation is minimum and controlled.
What I like about these is the treatment and narrow bands that produce more speed and somoother pressure curve.
TSX are solid performers no doubt. I think the Nosler Partition is also a pretty consistent performer
and a great alternative where some TSX might not be the best option.
It all depends on the siuation and intended use. The TSX is not good for low impact speeds and
as it turns out a 168gr AMAX will work very well at long distance for small deer or mountain goat
where they do not disintegrate so much but provide tumbling and some minor fragmentation
to produce broad wounding yet decent penetration but w/o too much fragmentation and corresponding mess.
I suspect the ELD might be the same and even better than the ELD-X for this type of use but we will
have to wait and test them and see what others see when hunting with them.

 

[MilesTeg]

GS custom are also very well designed. Fragmentation is minimum and controlled.
What I like about these is the treatment and narrow bands that produce more speed and somoother pressure curve.
TSX are solid performers no doubt. I think the Nosler Partition is also a pretty consistent performer
and a great alternative where some TSX might not be the best option.
It all depends on the siuation and intended use. The TSX is not good for low impact speeds and
as it turns out a 168gr AMAX will work very well at long distance for small deer or mountain goat
where they do not disintegrate so much but provide tumbling and some minor fragmentation
to produce broad wounding yet decent penetration but w/o too much fragmentation and corresponding mess.
I suspect the ELD might be the same and even better than the ELD-X for this type of use but we will
have to wait and test them and see what others see when hunting with them.

I was going to hop on the ELD-X train for next season. Just to see what they can do. It's hard to stray away from the monolithic copper bullets. They are well proven with great results.

I'm still dwelling on how to incorporate different bullets into you equation.

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe on " if we know what we are doing and take neck shots or follow other considerations but at the same time we have to keep it real if we want to do things by the book and assure ethical fast kills." ... what about head shots ? i think lots of hunters think that is taboo ... I just seen a video done with a DR. explaining what happens with a head shot .. why you see the animal flopping around .. are they in pain ??? or not ?? .. I'll have to find that vid if you haven't seen it and post.

It depends on the situation.

A shot in the head or neck might be the most humane way but not the ideal for a trophy.
A neck shot might not present itself as the best one based on angle and posture of the animal.
Also if the distance is too long and one has a forgiving round wiht plenty of energy to spare one might go for
a larger harder to miss area in the lungs.

Also when harvesting for meat there might be a preference to have the animal bleed as much as possible so
we avoid potentially spoiling the meat.

A head shot might make the meat taste better by suppressing an adrenaline injection as response from the brain.
But if one aims for the plexus wiht a potent caliber one might achieve the same by disrupting the CNS and at the
same time provide more bleeding although with instant collapse there is less bleeding as soon as the heart stops.
This is my favorite shot if I cannot make a good meat saver shot w enough power to create hydraulic shock.

It is a good question but hard to say because there might be other very good reasons to take a different shot
but also know there are shots that might have similar effect specially if you hit the plexus area. It really
works as a short circuit just like the neck and instant collapse.

I might choose to loose a bit of meat from the shoulder in exchange for a faster kill and faster job.

That is also why I think having good knowledge of cartridges and making sure one has enough killing power
and good knowledge of the anatomy is very important and perhaps why it is good to share this type of
threads and posts.

I hope it makes sense.

 

[meketrefe]

I was going to hop on the ELD-X train for next season. Just to see what they can do. It's hard to stray away from the monolithic copper bullets. They are well proven with great results.

I'm still dwelling on how to incorporate different bullets into you equation.

The TSX are not always the most accurate ones but they are accurate enough and very versatile for hunting.
Have you tried the 130gr? I was also looking at the ballistics of the 120gr TAC-tx and while I try to stay away from
light-grain-for-caliber bullets I think it can put enough speed that will be a pretty effective round up to 300 yards.
At 3300 fps with Benchmark or Xterminator will hit like a lightning rod.
If you think about it shoots flatter than the 243 and hits harder than the 243 while keeping friendly recoil like the 243.
This provides an effective round for white tail for a kid or petite wife that will not beat them up.

This one also screams...

308 Winchester 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip 20rds.

speed kills.

 

[spat]

Wise words in deed. I am taking note.
The thing is the ranking is a factor of the target. like the one bullet might be good for hogs and deer of light weight up to 300lbs but not another with the same grain and speed is not ideal for the hogs like the some sst or bt that can break down too much.
I think I have enough data in many bullets and animals to at least get started and prove the methodology, then it is a matter of working on them.
I read everything I can get my hands on from hunting world and specially terminal forensics.

Nathan Foster form NZ has put a nice website and few small books also worth visiting ...

Extensive Field-Tested Rifle & Cartridge Research - BallisticStudies.com

Tests like the mentioned above from xman in 270/6.8 are also great sources.

No one single person has the answer but the value we get is the result of the collective approach.

I think the classification should be done in a very pragmatic and systematic way because there is a lot of misleading information online too.

I was thinking perhaps the ranking could be as easy as a simple multiplier based on effectiveness for the intended game animal so we don't have
to overwhelm with all other attributes.

for example if we rate that 130gr TSX on deer we could rank like this.

S1,S2 = small game up to 50lbs S1 being the softest and easiest and S2 being the largests/harder.
M1,M2 - Medium up to 300lbs
L1,L2 - Large up to 3000lbs
XL1,XL2 - Very Large and/or Dangerous. A charging hipo bull would fall in XL2.

1 being poor choice
2 being limited
3 being ideal and beyond

View attachment 7716


By the same token we could highlight where the bullet /speed shines
just like this... M1-333 / M2-333

simply an idea. I am just thinking out loud here.

The good thing about bullets is that many bullets of the same construction tend to behave the same way
like for example a 130gr TTSX from a 308 behaves pretty much like a 120gr TTSX from a 7mm-08.
Also when we know the striking speeds and speed ranges of a bullet then we can project any calibers shooting the same
bullet. Only bullets matter the rest is just the means of delivery.

thoughts?

I will have to go through that website in detail.

There is a lot of value in what you have said, The biggest complication in terminal ballistics is the wider variety of targets. The reason that exterior ballistics is a precise science is that everything is in air, and density is about the only thing that really matters about air.

If everything worth shooting were made of ballistics gel then it would be as easily specified. But targets are wide and inhomogeneous, so it is more of an art.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried computational methods for terminal ballistics (aside from large caliber military use). A CFD model for several types of game could be very interesting to play with, especially for evaluating other methods to produce a figure of merit for a bullet.

 

[Jmac00]

I notice you keep referring to momentum? shouldn't you be more concerned terminal energy in foot pounds? Momentum means nothing TO ME (everyone else may know what you mean) or are they the same thing???

Honestly, projectile speed doesn't mean much to me. Im way more interested in Foot pounds of energy at my maximum range. And what about pressure COPPER UNITS OF PRESSURE or C.U.P.

and another thing you keep leaving out of the equation is powder? different powders with different projectiles will have a wide variety of results. Powders all burn at different rates and will have a profound effect on projectiles.

Maybe you're leaving the powder out on purpose, but to us reloaders, we tend to track everything and powder is extremely important.

also I think Winchester and Hodgdon's Ballistic calculators will do what you want without so much guessing.

OR IM I OVER THINKING what you're trying to do here?

 

[Jmac00]

or, you could just use this handy guide from BassPro

http://1source.basspro.com/index.ph...le-caliber-chart-to-pick-the-ammo-for-hunting

 

[meketrefe]

I notice you keep referring to momentum? shouldn't you be more concerned terminal energy in foot pounds? Momentum means nothing TO ME (everyone else may know what you mean) or are they the same thing???

Honestly, projectile speed doesn't mean much to me. Im way more interested in Foot pounds of energy at my maximum range. And what about pressure COPPER UNITS OF PRESSURE or C.U.P.

and another thing you keep leaving out of the equation is powder? different powders with different projectiles will have a wide variety of results. Powders all burn at different rates and will have a profound effect on projectiles.

Maybe you're leaving the powder out on purpose, but to us reloaders, we tend to track everything and powder is extremely important.

also I think Winchester and Hodgdon's Ballistic calculators will do what you want without so much guessing.

OR IM I OVER THINKING what you're trying to do here?

Not you are not overthinking and all comments in good faith are welcome. The reason we are not talking about powders is because we are concentrating
mainly on impact so we don't care what powder or cartridge launched the bullet and only about the package and how that package specifically behaves
at different speeds when striking game of different types and weights. Reloading and powders is another important aspect but we are trying to separate
from internal and external ballistics.

The Energy is important as it tells us the energy a bullet has that is especially useful when we look at these values at the different ranges vs. the muzzle
unless one is intending to kill the deer with the muzzle stuck to the animal lol. But I think momentum is a much better representation of the true power
of a round at the different distances. In fact a light bullet might have more energy than a heavier bullet of the same caliber striking at slower speeds
but at the same time the heavier bullet has more momentum than the lighter bullet. This is important in any two objects impacting. It is why a slow moving
F150 will not be offset as a little honda moving faster although the honda might carry more energy it cannot compete wih the momentum carried
by the slow moving truck. Momentum is what knocks things down. Mopmentum is what carries on with penetration and breaks major bones without
problems as soon as the bullet doesn't break up too much.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Jmac00]

ok I got'cha. interesting, a little confusing, but interesting

 

[Marine Cpl]

I think all this momentum, energy dump, ect is nonsense and has been disputed by reputable experts who have dealt with wounds. A Google search shows multiple sources where experts debunk energy dump. Momentum itself doesn't create bigger wounds. It just penetrates further depending on the weight of the bullet..

The wound is what is actually the damage. The size of the hole in diameter, the depth of hole in length, and the path the bullet took depending on what was in its path.

 

[meketrefe]

I think all this momentum, energy dump, ect is nonsense and has been disputed by reputable experts who have dealt with wounds. A Google search shows multiple sources where experts debunk energy dump. Momentum doesn't create bigger wounds. It just penetrates further.

The wound is what actually damages. The size of the hole in diameter, the depth of hole in length, and the path the bullet depending on what was in its path.

Will,
momentum and energy dump are two different things. See the momentum as a more meaningful value than the energy alone because momentum
has more relevance in how an object is reacts when impacting another. Projected trajectories are preserved by momentum, sometimes lots of it.
Momentum is also a huge determining factor for a brush calibers. All good brush calibers have high momentum like for example a 450 marlin
while a 308, a 30-06 and even a win mag, will have serious problems. At the ranges the 450 marlin is efficient not only will cut trough the brush but
will have the punch to take down a heavy and/or dangerous animal fast.
When hunting in Africa they will not let you hunt certain animals with a 30 caliber or 338 even a lapua magnum might have more energy than
a 375 or 45 but the heavy rounds have more momentum to make sure they stay put on the projected trajectories.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Will,
momentum and energy dump are two different things. See the momentum as a more meaningful value than the energy alone because momentum
has more relevance in how an object is reacts when impacting another. Projected trajectories are preserved by momentum, sometimes lots of it.
Momentum is also a huge determining factor for a brush calibers. All good brush calibers have high momentum like for example a 450 marlin
while a 308, a 30-06 and even a win mag, will have serious problems. At the ranges the 450 marlin is efficient not only will cut trough the brush but
will have the punch to take down a heavy and/or dangerous animal fast.
When hunting in Africa they will not let you hunt certain animals with a 30 caliber or 338 even a lapua magnum might have more energy than
a 375 or 45 but the heavy rounds have more momentum to make sure they stay put on the projected trajectories.

Yes. I get that. I was in the process of editing when you replied.

 

[ECU Pirates]

When hunting in Africa they will not let you hunt certain animals with a 30 caliber or 338 even a lapua magnum might have more energy than
a 375 or 45 but the heavy rounds have more momentum to make sure they stay put on the projected trajectories.

Some countries in Africa have minimum energy requirements. The .338 is legal for all game in those countries. While legal, I would still prefer a big bore rifle while going after cape buffalo or other big nasties! Big holes that go deep and all that good stuff.

 

[Jmac00]

Some countries in Africa have minimum energy requirements. The .338 is legal for all game in those countries. While legal, I would still prefer a big bore rifle while going after cape buffalo or other big nasties! Big holes that go deep and all that good stuff.

I just read an article ( I wish I could find it now) that stated most Professional Hunters in Africa are going to a 45-70 lever gun. Instead of the old tried and true 375 H&H double gun. I forgot what the reason was....damn, now I wish i had saved the article now.

 

[meketrefe]

Some countries in Africa have minimum energy requirements. The .338 is legal for all game in those countries. While legal, I would still prefer a big bore rifle while going after cape buffalo or other big nasties! Big holes that go deep and all that good stuff.

Cannot hunt many animals with the 338 lapua or even more lethal rounds like a 358 'RUM'.
antelope, wildebeast, sambar, boar, etc... can use many calibers even a modest 6 or 6.5mm but not many other game.
Most reserves do not allow anything smaller than 375 and a guide might discuss with you your choices or
might provide an appropriate gun. It is both an ethical but also a safety and liability issue for them.

 

[meketrefe]

I just read an article ( I wish I could find it now) that stated most Professional Hunters in Africa are going to a 45-70 lever gun. Instead of the old tried and true 375 H&H double gun. I forgot what the reason was....damn, now I wish i had saved the article now.

Legit businesses and guides will not allow it. In some exceptions they might with certain game up to certain weight but imagine a 5,000 lb hypo or a 15,000lb elephant bull charging at you. 45/70 is cool but it was a military round not something you take to put yourself in those situations.
if you find the article I would like to read it.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I just read an article ( I wish I could find it now) that stated most Professional Hunters in Africa are going to a 45-70 lever gun. Instead of the old tried and true 375 H&H double gun. I forgot what the reason was....damn, now I wish i had saved the article now.

I doubt that. PH's will stick with a bolt gun and very few use a .375. The days of the double are gone for most PH's.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Cannot hunt many animals with the 338 lapua or even more lethal rounds like a 358 'RUM'.
antelope, wildebeast, sambar, boar, etc... can use many calibers even a modest 6 or 6.5mm but not many other game.
Most reserves do not allow anything smaller than 375 and a guide might discuss with you your choices or
might provide an appropriate gun. It is both an ethical but also a safety and liability issue for them.

You can hunt anything with the .338 laupa in some African countries. Most still have the 9.3x62 or .375 bore restrictions but some are making changes. I think it's a bad idea (the energy vs bore restrictions) but that's my opinion. I think the .375 is light for the big guys. Africa is an amazing place. I would never use a loaner gun on the hunt of a lifetime. One should be familiar with what they use. I have never been on a big five hunt and don't have any desire to shoot an elephant, but I would go after a cape buff in a second! I was in Africa for a bit but no hunting.

Namibia has a 7mm/energy restriction. No thanks!
"Firearms
Firearms Smallest caibre 7mm Minimum energy (Eo-muzzle velocity): 1350 Joule for springbok,duiker ect. 2700 Joule for hartebeest, wildebeest,kudu,gemsbuck,eland ect. 5400 Joule for buffalo,elephant,rhino etc. No solid point cartridge is allowed to be used antelope or any other species. Handguns, Automatic and Semi-automatic weapons are Prohibited in Namibia."