Hunting Ammo Killing Power

[meketrefe]

It changes from country to country but even if the country has a restriction might not apply to the reserve or to the discretion and rules of the organizer.
Normally things are very well organized and everyone will hunt with their own approved rifle and ammo unless is broken or something.
The 458 winmag was created for the shooter who wanted African muzzle so one would not have to spend as much in the gun and
ammo as one did in the hunt + guide.
Even in Alaska unless you are a native you might go through a process lottery and have to be hosted by a guide and might tell you the type
of firearm they are expecting for the hunt. If you are going to pay big time they wan to make sure A) your safety B) proper tool for a happy experience.

 

[Jmac00]

I doubt that. PH's will stick with a bolt gun and very few use a .375. The days of the double are gone for most PH's.

I still can't find the article, Im still looking for it, but I did find this on Garrett's website about penetration. they talk about velocity vs penetration. The entire website interesting to read.

But I recall the article Im looking for said the 45-70 was being used because the gun was light, but had excellent penetration on large, dangerous game at close range ~~~ *close range* being the important part.

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I still can't find the article, Im still looking for it, but I did find this on Garrett's website about penetration. they talk about velocity vs penetration. The entire website interesting to read.

But I recall the article Im looking for said the 45-70 was being used because the gun was light, but had excellent penetration on large, dangerous game at close range ~~~ *close range* being the important part.

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

If I was a PH using a lever action I would go elsewhere haha.

 

[ECU Pirates]

It changes from country to country but even if the country has a restriction might not apply to the reserve or to the discretion and rules of the organizer.
Normally things are very well organized and everyone will hunt with their own approved rifle and ammo unless is broken or something.
The 458 winmag was created for the shooter who wanted African muzzle so one would not have to spend as much in the gun and
ammo as one did in the hunt + guide.
Even in Alaska unless you are a native you might go through a process lottery and have to be hosted by a guide and might tell you the type
of firearm they are expecting for the hunt. If you are going to pay big time they wan to make sure A) your safety B) proper tool for a happy experience.

I was in South Africa for work. I stayed an a additional week after the work was done and traveled around. I went on the photo "Safari" trips and spoke with some PH's. I always said I would go back one day and get a buff and some plains game. Then I bought an engagement ring. Then I paid for my wedding. Then the kid came. You can see where this is going. I studied up on a bunch of things and decided I was going to get a CZ in a caliber that started in 4. They were about the only rifles I could find that were not insanely priced. I might not make it back Africa. If I do it won't be for at least a decade. Maybe one day!

 

[Jmac00]

If I was a PH using a lever action I would go elsewhere haha.

don't get me wrong, Im not really defending the 45-70. Just saying it's good overall high penetration round. Honestly, i doubt I'll ever go to Africa for any reason (unless I win the lottery) but if I was going for dangerous game, I think I would take something the L.A.W's caliber

 

[4excal]

 

[Jmac00]

from number 50-58......my shoulder hurts just looking at them

 

[ECU Pirates]

from number 50-58......my shoulder hurts just looking at them

56 is not all that bad. The rifle weigh a ton and the brakes make them hurt more ears than shoulders.

 

[meketrefe]

Are these classifications ok or perhaps need something even easier ?

Lets put another example:

308 Winchester Speer spbt 180gr

L1-333, L2-322
M1-333, M2-333

L1 .. large game from 300lb to 2000lb. Bison, Large Elk, some moose.
L2.. large game from 500lb to 3000lb harder to kill. Large Bears, Largest Moose.
M1- Medium soft skin - 50lb to 300lb - White tail, mountain goat
M2 - Medium harder to kill - 50lb to 300lb - Mule deer, Boar / large hogs.

 

[meketrefe]

Any interest anyone?

 

[MilesTeg]

Sorry I haven't had the time to do much with this. I have few ideas but it will probably be too much to type. Also without doing some research I might not have anything.

 

[meketrefe]

In this article you can read how Phill Shoemaker defended his clients and his own life against a grizzly with a 9mm pistol and
see how the understanding of terminal ballistics and making the right bullet choices can make a difference.

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

The ammunition... 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol
by Phil Shoemaker - Wednesday, August 10, 2016

More
SUBSCRIBE
I have been guiding brown bear hunters and fishermen and bear photographers from our homestead within Becharof National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska for 33 years and have had numerous close encounters with bears. Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed. When it happened, I was fully aware of what was going on and how big the bear was. I also managed to stay aware of where my clients were, even when the bear was directly between us. The woman I was guiding said that while she did not remember smelling the bear’s breath, it was close enough to her face that it could have bitten her!

I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot.

The two photos shown here tell a pretty good story by themselves. The secondary photo (embedded at the bottom of this story) was taken from the point where the charging bear first erupted from the brush. I am on the left and Larry, my fishing client, is on the right. The bear was within 2 feet or less of Larry and his wife when I shot it. You can see the dead bear to the left of Larry. The main photo (embedded to the right) shows Larry and me with the dead bear and shows its size.

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

Before we reached the stream, while we were walking through dense brush and tall grass, we heard a growl and deep “woof” of a bear approximately 6 feet to our right (behind me in the secondary photo). We had been talking loudly but must have startled a sleeping bear. It sounded like it made a movement toward us, and I shouted loudly and the bear ran back through the brush to the right in the photo. Within 15 seconds, we could hear it growling and charging through the dense brush from the opposite side.

I had my pistol out by then, and the bear first appeared from where the photographer in photo No. 2 was standing. It went straight for my clients; Larry and his wife fell backwards in the deep grass. She said the bear’s face was close enough to hers that it could have bitten her!

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

My pistol was loaded with Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman 147-grain FN hard-cast loads that have a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. I had previously tested, compared and proven such loads with my .357 and .44 mags., and I was convinced they would work.

Editor's Note: After the incident, Shoemaker wrote a letter to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore; see it here. Visit Phil's website here.

Editor's Note No. 2: Learn more about the Outdoorsman line of ammunition here.

IN THIS ARTICLE

 

[Marine Cpl]

In this article you can read how Phill Shoemaker defended his clients and his own life against a grizzly with a 9mm pistol and
see how the understanding of terminal ballistics and making the right bullet choices can make a difference.

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

The ammunition... 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol
by Phil Shoemaker - Wednesday, August 10, 2016

More
SUBSCRIBE
I have been guiding brown bear hunters and fishermen and bear photographers from our homestead within Becharof National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska for 33 years and have had numerous close encounters with bears. Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed. When it happened, I was fully aware of what was going on and how big the bear was. I also managed to stay aware of where my clients were, even when the bear was directly between us. The woman I was guiding said that while she did not remember smelling the bear’s breath, it was close enough to her face that it could have bitten her!

I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot.

The two photos shown here tell a pretty good story by themselves. The secondary photo (embedded at the bottom of this story) was taken from the point where the charging bear first erupted from the brush. I am on the left and Larry, my fishing client, is on the right. The bear was within 2 feet or less of Larry and his wife when I shot it. You can see the dead bear to the left of Larry. The main photo (embedded to the right) shows Larry and me with the dead bear and shows its size.

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

Before we reached the stream, while we were walking through dense brush and tall grass, we heard a growl and deep “woof” of a bear approximately 6 feet to our right (behind me in the secondary photo). We had been talking loudly but must have startled a sleeping bear. It sounded like it made a movement toward us, and I shouted loudly and the bear ran back through the brush to the right in the photo. Within 15 seconds, we could hear it growling and charging through the dense brush from the opposite side.

I had my pistol out by then, and the bear first appeared from where the photographer in photo No. 2 was standing. It went straight for my clients; Larry and his wife fell backwards in the deep grass. She said the bear’s face was close enough to hers that it could have bitten her!

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

My pistol was loaded with Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman 147-grain FN hard-cast loads that have a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. I had previously tested, compared and proven such loads with my .357 and .44 mags., and I was convinced they would work.

Editor's Note: After the incident, Shoemaker wrote a letter to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore; see it here. Visit Phil's website here.

Editor's Note No. 2: Learn more about the Outdoorsman line of ammunition here.

IN THIS ARTICLE

I've got some. I would rather have 11 shots of that compared to 5 shots of an unwieldy revolver.

 

[meketrefe]

This is a pretty accurate review of the 300 whisper/blackout by Bill Alexander, designer of the 6.5 grendel
and 50 Beowolf. It explains why the round designed is pretty limited in terms of terminal and ballistics performance...


--------------------------------------------------------------

RELEASE FROM SAVAGE ... Since then they have been pushed to make another rifle but this statement from savage
explains the issues.

SAVAGE ARMS: 300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

 

[meketrefe]

Someone I can agree with on the long range BS some folks are pulling out their arses.
I give the rem-mag a bit more range up to 800 for ELK yet, still.
folks need to stop watching movies.

 

[Acer-m14]

Someone I can agree with on the long range BS some folks are pulling out their arses.
I give the rem-mag a bit more range up to 800 for ELK yet, still.
folks need to stop watching movies.

love watching his videos ..

 

[meketrefe]

the power of hydraulically induced shock.

 

[Elwood]

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

 

[meketrefe]

Back to the regular programming.
22 Valkyrie varminter.

Still So-so...