Is this really the fault of the Police???

Marine Cpl · Jun 3, 2020

I know you don’t want to hear my opinion but the last paragraph sums it up perfectly. Do the absolute minimum. A guy speeds, run a warrant and give him a ticket. No breaks. No fishing. Just give him the ticket. Let him go home and you go home. He has a family just like you do.

Obvious crimes are fair game. DWI’s are fair game. Speeding is fair game. Stealing is fair game. Murder, rape, burglary, ect is fair game. If you do it and get caught, you pay the piper

As far as enforcing laws that may or may not be unconstitutional... Police aren’t dummies. They know what’s constitutional or not. They know that George Washington if alive today would not put up with being stopped by Government agents and have his horse and person searched for a smell of cannabis which he cultivated and smoked himself despite what a Supreme Court later ruled regarding reasonable suspicion. He also would not put up with gun confiscation and barrel length on his musket.

To me the biggest problem with police is the active searching for crimes that aren’t visible. Often times they look and look until they find one. That’s not how it’s supposed to be. And if a real crime is committed, arrest and don’t take things personal. Ego is a big problem as well. Just do your job like everyone else does. If people get mad and don’t show you respect, just say, “Here your ticket sir. Just like everyone else who works and has to deal with scum. Just doing what is right is all we ask.

Lots of people do not care about what set this off or even about the dude himself. They are just tired of the way policing is conducted in this country.

spat · Jun 3, 2020

GOPerfect said:
But what about the others that I mentioned? When do we really hold the elected to their oaths and make them accept the responsibility for the Bullshit laws and regulations they pass?

When do we hold the people responsible? When are the scum of society held responsible? The police are in certian areas because of the lack of decency by certain Americans. When is their fault for what happens to them>

You are right about the problem, but none of those groups will be held responsible until there is a major reboot of our society.

It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

Marine Cpl · Jun 3, 2020

GOPerfect said:
But what about the others that I mentioned? When do we really hold the elected to their oaths and make them accept the responsibility for the Bullshit laws and regulations they pass?

When do we hold the people responsible? When are the scum of society held responsible? The police are in certian areas because of the lack of decency by certain Americans. When is their fault for what happens to them>

Oh. The scum should be dealt with. But they should be dealt with just the same as us. If we speed, rob someone, commit murder, ect. But not by fishing for a crime. I guess I mean at car stops where searching has to be conducted on a hunch and nothing else.

As far as politicians go who pass laws, the police are our last line of defense against them. That’s why the oath was created that today really means nothing. Against all enemies foreign and domestic. Domestic is the key word. You guys are our only hope. You can choose to not enforce bad laws. Just like it’s chosen to not enforce other obscure laws like watering your lawn on Sunday or adultery laws. Because if someday those politicians have to be dealt with, the Police will be in the way. It will be worse than what has happened these last few days.

Tisto · Jun 3, 2020

I wanted to quote your last paragraph, but alas, I'm a dinosaur and can't figure out how.

Sadly, I believe that what have been seeing for a week directly relates to what your last paragraph said. The people rioting for "change" in the policing methods want EXACTLY what you said. They want you to roll through the projects without stopping. They want you to not notice them selling crack or meth or horse on the corner. They want you to ignore the pimp and his whores. They want you to ignore the teenagers stripping the vehicle of the honest plumber that came to fix someone's problem. They want you to be absolutely blind to any and all activities and actions they might take that are "ILLEGAL". After all, they are the REAL victim in all of this. They want all of this of course, at the same time they expect you to show up when it's THEIR stuff getting robbed or destroyed.

I don't think that MOST people want policing to be radically changed. I think the vast majority of people see policing as falling into a few different categories though.

1: Revenue enhancement - setting up radar in some locations that are clearly traps ( and I mean where speed limits change dramatically without warning, or at the bottom of a long hill, etc ). People see that for what it is. It is not about "safety", it's about $$$$.

2: Fishing - this is just harassment. If I did something to legitamately get pulled over, then tell me what I did and give me my award. Playing 20 questions isn't necessary, and no-one likes it. "Where am I going ? Where am I coming from ? Why am I driving with the window down ? Why am I wearing a clown costume ?" Those are none of your business. Asking to look in my trunk is none of your business, either. All you're going to find is a spare tire, but still none of your business. If you ACTUALLY HAVE REASONABLE SUSPICION THAT THERE IS A CRIME BEING COMITTED, GET A WARRANT.

3: Power. The GOD COMPLEX that some LEO's have is what causes much of the "them vs. us" problems in America. This problem is perhaps the biggest, and at the same time the most difficult to solve. Police must project authority, but the amount is the question. Contempt of Cop is a real thing to many LEO's. If they perceive that the person they are dealing with is not showing the proper amount of submission [ and I used that word on purpose, because it's about submission , not respect. ] then that LEO feels the need to be even more agressive in his tactics in order to teach his subject a lesson. This NEVER ends well.

There are other factors and categories, but I think those are the major points. I think the good honest working people just want to be left alone. If they do something stupid, most will accept their fate. An occasional break for a minor mishap that didn't hurt anyone or anything is appreciated by them. The guy smuggling 80 Kilo's of Columbian BAM-BAM is what they want you to worry about. It's all about priorities.

Tisto · Jun 3, 2020

As far as holding elected officials accountable, well, I wouldn't bet my lunch money on it. Since there have been politicians, those politicians have been making rules that benefit themselves and subjugate the rest. It's a nice thought that we can vote them out, but the system is rigged against that. Only a total reset of our government every hundred years or so can accomplish that. Term limits for ALL public servants would be a start, but not solve the problem.

seezur · Jun 3, 2020

I‘ve said it before but traditionally I’ve never been a fan of the police. They don’t add value to my life. Instead they’ve tended to cause issues and waste my time, and the ones I have interacted with often have huge egos and are pricks.

That being said I have never felt worse for cops than I do now. What happened to George is horrible, and all those officers should be charged. But it’s not a black and white thing. Where was the outrage when six cops beat Kelly Thomas to death? What about the murder charges (spoiler, all charges were dropped)? Cops often times overstep, and obviously murder is the worst thing they occasionally do. But it isn‘t all officers, and the looters and rioters do not have the moral high ground. I’m getting tired of seeing videos of “protestors“ scream incomprehensible ebonics while jumping out of store windows with bags of loot. I hope the police are able to protect those who are unable to protect themselves and stay safe.

Going forward I think the best thing the police can do is to not enforce the many, many petty laws on the books. Help people instead of only policing them, and only police them when it’s a serious, dangerous crime. This should help build goodwill, as people will see cops as civil servants instead of potential oppressors. I also think it would benefit the police, both their safety and sanity, to stay out of these “communities“. I know people are kinda gun shy to say it how it is, but the bad communities are predominantly the black communities in the inner cities. Maybe those communities should be left to police their own people. Maybe they should be responsible for themselves. Many of them certainly seem to hate police, so why waste time and resources?

Shadow2 · Jun 3, 2020

Yes it is, The barber down the street didn't choke anyone out.

Twogunwilly · Jun 3, 2020

Not entirely, Most of the blame is on the parents of the thug and the low life politicians who depend on chaos to drive wedges between groups of people. You have a thankless job, you are the tip of the spear. The lefticom politicians that hold the spear jab it daily into the rocks and mud to stir up discontent with one hand while scooping up graft with the other. Chaos means power, we are all witnessing a huge power grab attempt that started when O'blowboy took office and redoubled when Shillary did not.

Blimey · Jun 3, 2020

Agree. As i've said before my last neighborhood the only time we ever had cops in the hood in the decade I lived there was when they were driving home for the night. We were simply civilized people who did not act like idiots, and so the police never had to be called. Never, not once by anybody a domestic disturbance or anything else like that. Dozens of houses, and I do mean literally never, ever was a cop car going through our neighborhood with its lights on. Ever.

Nuclear family with two parents, and either both are working or one (almost always the mother) is an at home parent to take care of the kids and the house. This works, we know it works. It works the world over. Communities with high police presence have broken homes, lack of mentors, etc. and these all lead to worse outcomes. The police presence is a symptom. The way some people talk to police now is hard to believe. They have no respect for police because they have no respect for themselves or anybody else.

Darth · Jun 3, 2020

The police need to be there.

The police need to be there.

We may not like it, but the police need to be there.

Why?

Blimey · Jun 3, 2020

GOPerfect said:
When I hear that the communities of color are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement, I gotta ask why. What is so different between, say a community of color and a predominantly white community? Why do police arrest more in one area over another. Are the police doing something wrong? Are they just putting a target on the back of certain areas?

At what point does the fault of a people's plight become their fault? Why do the police spend the minority of time in one area compared to another?

Here in Buffalo, the vast majority of arrests and the vast majority of crime and serious issues come from The East side of the city. Why? Is this the fault of, and does the blame sit on the cops? North Buffalo? Next to no crime, when crime does occur, the crim is usually from the East side.

Time has past for the people of some areas and the politicians that push these laws to be held accountable for what they do.

We all know the answer to this of course. Look at Rochester. Compare the population in the inner city to that of the suburbs and now compare the number of people on whec.com each morning who have been shot and plug in the street name. People in suburbs are extremely well behaved, absolutely not prone to violence and when they call the police it's largely for silly shit like my neighbor threw his grass clippings on my yard again.

The same reason the city gets disproportionate police response is the same reason it's poor, the same reason most of the kids have no dad, same reason truancy is through the roof, same reason unemployment is high etc. Simply: not high rates of good outcomes, and that's going to be correlated with higher crime and therefore higher police needs. These communities use policy as a whipping boy for everything that is wrong with them.

NY Leatherneck · Jun 3, 2020

Just thought I would objectively read all the posts. All views on this thread are right on the money including the OP. We have lots of problems, all of which culminate into current events. Unless all are fixed nothing will be. Now the far left want to defund the police. Ok go ahead then, see how that helps your community.... BUT.... they don't care because the ones calling for that are the politicians pandering for a vote, rich celebrities looking for a cause since they know they dont actually relate and the lawless themselves. There are some cops that are bad just like everywhere, they need to be dealt with through an effective internal/external system. The politicians need actual accountability by the people and need to reign in bad policies that drive departments to make those policies happen. Criminals are just that, do the crime spend the time. Bail reform, wtf.... I don't blame the cops for asking themselves wtf am I doing here when a good collar is on the street for their next shift after the bust. I am glad that, in the end, we live in a country that have laws like the 1st & 2nd amendment in place that ultimately leave it up to us to control our own lives.

holdover · Jun 3, 2020

I don't find it to be the fault of police policy, I find it to be the fault of individual officers and a system that polices itself.

Dr. Evil · Jun 3, 2020

I have said over and over that the two biggest problems we have in society are the breakdown of the family unit and the lack of personal responsibility. Kids not being taught right from wrong, self worth and self respect by BOTH parents. Yes, not being poor is helpful but you have poor kids that turn out as productive members of society and rich kids that turn out to be scumbags. The family environment is key. That's why I have always believed that parenting and raising kids is the hardest job there is. Teaching and raising children properly leads to them learning honesty, respecting others and authority, self respect, etc.. Imagine for a moment if you will how much different the world and the job the police would have to do would be if this was the situation. OK, now back to reality.

Jmac00 · Jun 3, 2020

spat said:
You are right about the problem, but none of those groups will be held responsible until there is a major reboot of our society.

It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

I believe the "re-boot" has begun

spat · Jun 3, 2020

Blimey said:
We all know the answer to this of course. Look at Rochester. Compare the population in the inner city to that of the suburbs and now compare the number of people on whec.com each morning who have been shot and plug in the street name. People in suburbs are extremely well behaved, absolutely not prone to violence and when they call the police it's largely for silly shit like my neighbor threw his grass clippings on my yard again.

The same reason the city gets disproportionate police response is the same reason it's poor, the same reason most of the kids have no dad, same reason truancy is through the roof, same reason unemployment is high etc. Simply: not high rates of good outcomes, and that's going to be correlated with higher crime and therefore higher police needs. These communities use policy as a whipping boy for everything that is wrong with them.

This all boils down to a much more fundamental premise.

It's about social mobility. People whose lives are "as bad as it gets" in a society have nothing to lose, and therefore no reason to respect any norms.

It doesn't actually matter how good they have it, only how much they have to lose.

The worst off in our society have a much higher quality of life than even the upper class of 100 years ago.

There are 2 reasons most people obey social rules, one is general respect for those rules, and the other is fear of the consequences of violating them.

Look at the people here, there are a bunch of rules that we have no fundamental respect for (SAFE anyone). We only follow them because we fear the consequences of violating then. If the penalties for violation were low, most of us would just say "screw it, who cares".

For people in those margins of society, the penalties aren't significant. Even prison isn't a major deterrent for many of them.

SomeSoldier · Jun 3, 2020

The problem isn't with any one area of society. The problem is the sum of its parts.

Politicians/Judges/DAs are reasonably for making, enacting and upholding unconstitutional laws. They are also responsible for what they say, creating this divide and encouraging this violence. They have been driving us to this point for a century.

Law enforcement should be responsible for their actions good or bad, own them. The police have lost trust from the people because they are not upholding their oaths. They are carrying out these illegal policies and unconstitutional laws. I think a lot of people went into law enforcement for the wrong reason, which is why we have so many that don't actually care about rights violations. These comments are for all levels of Law Enforcement, federal on down.

Now the people probably have the biggest hand to play in all this because the other two groups are apart of this group. Number 1 problem lack of morals, give way to corruption. Number 2, lack of personal responsibility; failure to do well on life, failure to not break the law, failure to try to cheat taxes, failure to do well in school, these are everyone else fault not the person that committed the action. The people need to do what is right in life.

I could probably write a novel if I went to through everything in my head. But in the end people are the problem.

Blimey · Jun 3, 2020

Dr. Evil said:
I have said over and over that the two biggest problems we have in society are the breakdown of the family unit and the lack of personal

Every analysis confirms this. Even mass shooters are greatly over represented as having a mother-only in the household. When you account for two vs one parent households the outcomes are so highly correlated with this facet it's a sin we don't talk about it more. But, our PC society insists there is nothing wrong with having just a single mom. And, though sometimes it's unavoidable, there is actually something wrong with it and it should be a situation we strive to minimize.

fresch · Jun 3, 2020

As a cop why don't they hold the political responsible instead of giving them rides home?
Judges drunk getting rides home.

BDinPutnam · Jun 3, 2020

Darth said:
The police need to be there.

The police need to be there.

We may not like it, but the police need to be there.

Why?

Because without them and the courts you wouldn't have a job?

spat · Jun 3, 2020

Blimey said:
Every analysis confirms this. Even mass shooters are greatly over represented as having a mother-only in the household. When you account for two vs one parent households the outcomes are so highly correlated with this facet it's a sin we don't talk about it more. But, our PC society insists there is nothing wrong with having just a single mom. And, though sometimes it's unavoidable, there is actually something wrong with it and it should be a situation we strive to minimize.

It is very strongly correlated, but I'm not so sure what the causal relationship is.

Does having the single mom cause the trouble, or is it just another symptom of an underlying problem.

It's like addiction, do the drugs really destroy lives, or do people whose lives are coming off the rails seek out the drugs.

fresch · Jun 3, 2020

When crack came out a good friend told me he was "addicted " to it, I had cut ties with him due to this use; I asked him if he was giving out sex for it. He replied with great emphasis no! I replied then your not "addicted " you have too much money and time on your hands.
After he lost his job, wife, car, he finally got his crap together and is doing great.
It is the weak that become "addicted" be it real or an excuse to continue doing what they want.

Blimey · Jun 3, 2020

spat said:
It is very strongly correlated, but I'm not so sure what the causal relationship is.

Does having the single mom cause the trouble, or is it just another symptom of an underlying problem.

It's like addiction, do the drugs really destroy lives, or do people whose lives are coming off the rails seek out the drugs.

Single 16 year old mom dropped out of highschool is more likely to raise a shitty boy who turns into a shitty man. That shitty man then impregnates somebody else and since he's shitty he won't hang around, so she ends up single as well and raises a shitty person just like the shitty father. All intertwined and either one can cause the other. Police have nothing to do with any of that, though. Always somebody to blame. Blame the police, or blame the schools for a 50% graduation rate. Blame blame blame, never our fault.

Apeman · Jun 3, 2020

spat said:
There are 2 reasons most people obey social rules, one is general respect for those rules, and the other is fear of the consequences of violating them.

Look at the people here, there are a bunch of rules that we have no fundamental respect for (SAFE anyone). We only follow them because we fear the consequences of violating then. If the penalties for violation were low, most of us would just say "screw it, who cares".

For people in those margins of society, the penalties aren't significant. Even prison isn't a major deterrent for many of them.

Exactly. The liberals are pushing harder than ever to decrease the prison population. It doesn't matter to them why someone is in jail, they don't think it's fair to lock someone up. Jail is barely a punishment anyway. If you want to keep society civil then people need to actually be punished for committing a crime. Lock them in their cell for 23 hours a day - no playing sports, no tv, no free education, no socializing with your buddies that are in jail with you. Once the scumbags get a taste of that and word gets out that going to prison really sucks then people will behave better.

Yes we all made our stuff complaint because of the threat of the punishment if caught with something that's legal in 40 other states. It's also bullshit that possession of an inanimate object in this state will land you a harder sentence that committing certain physical crimes. What else do you expect from a liberal shithole like NY.

I think most police officers are good. As with any job there are some that should be fired. The biggest difference is that when a cop screws up someone might die. I do feel that some of them think they can get away with anything. That cop knew people were filming him and he still didn't take his knee off him. I know that if someone fights back and doesn't want to be arrested they need to be dealt with however is necessary to subdue them and I have no problem with the use of force. Once they're down the force needs to stop though. I can understand a cop being pissed that he got punched, kicked, or bit but after they have someone controlled they don't get to take free shots at them.

Marine Cpl · Jun 3, 2020

At the end of the day, crimes are committed by lower class of people because drugs and guns are a crime. For the most part, murder and rapes are rare.

If drugs and guns were legal, there would be fewer criminals. You do not see bootlegging alcohol operations and illegal knife selling in public housing because it is legal. You can get it in the store across the street for cheap. But you see drugs and guns because you cannot get it in the store across the street.

The government’s war on drugs and the gutting of the 2A is the sole reason that so many are in jail. Make those 2 legal and most crimes will go away.

Add to that the lack of jobs that the poor used to have that went away to China. The poor will always try to find a way to make a buck. Even in trailer parks, poor white people will sell meth and guns.

We have too many criminals because the government has failed the poor. Bring back factory jobs, make drugs and guns legal, and the only thing you would have to arrest someone on is real crimes of rape, murder, burglary, ect.

Darth · Jun 3, 2020

BDinPutnam said:
Because without them and the courts you wouldn't have a job?

I'll manage.

MuttCat · Jun 3, 2020

Unintended Consequences by John Ross. Read it. I'm about 2/3 through, I'm fit to be tied.

Is this really the fault of the Police???

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