S
stuck in ny
Guest
It only talks about weapons made FROM a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. It says nothing about weapons built from scratch (virgin receiver).
Legal non-NFA short barrel "other" or "firearm"
- Thread starter freddy
- Start date
spat
.700 Nitro Express
There was a time that laws would be ruled invalid just for being unclear.
Of course this used to be a free country too.
freddy
.308 Win
Spat, are you saying the only compliant way to have a 11.5" barrel is on a pistol permit?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The law basically says anything that isn't a rifle, or a shotgun, or on your permit, or registered as an AW is illegal. it certainly isn't toothless. If some DA wanted to they could probably charge you under pl265 if you built a 40w laser pointer.
freddy
.308 Win
Can you point me to where this is described in NY PL?
S
stuck in ny
Guest
You're overlooking the words "made from". It says nothing about the weapon described by the OP. By your reading, all ar pistols would be sbrs; they're not, because their receivers never were anything else.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What I'm saying is when Officer Slappy opens your trunk and see's an AR variant with a Sig Pistol Brace and a forward pistol grip, he will arrest you for having a pistol that is not listed on your permit and is configured into an Assault Weapon configuration.
When the case reaches the Grand Jury, the Assistant District Attorney will give the definition of an Assault Weapon to the Grand Jury. When the Grand Jury reads the definition, they will see that it has a forward grip, magazine well outside of the grip and move the case to go to trial.
At the trial, you will claim that it isn't a pistol and that it is just a firearm as per the ATF. The ADA will insist that the NY Penal Law Definition of pistol is what is revelant to the trial and not the Federal definition.
In the off chance that you somehow can miraculously prove and convince them to accept the Federal definition, they will say that since via the Federal definition it is a firearm, then you were illegally in possession of a firearm and subject to Criminal Possession of a Firearm.
Remember, all firearms are Illegal in the State of New York unless exempted. What would be your exemption? You aren't a military member in performance of your duties or a sworn police officer. The only exemption a civilian can get here is via a pistol permit issued via Penal law 400 which this firearm was not under.
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freddy
.308 Win
Makes sense. Thank you. Is there any reason a fixed mag, 10 round, XO 26 R2 (with brace) could not be put on a pistol permit?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It's all in Penal Law 265 linked below. It's a long read but I have quoted the revelant parts.
Article 265 Penal Law Firearms | Dangerous Weapons | NY Law
S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to
the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen
which added this section subject to the registration requirements of
subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly
fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.
Criminal possession of a firearm is a class E felony.
S 265.20 Exemptions.
3. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license
therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of
this chapter or possession of a weapon as defined in paragraph (e) or
(f) of subdivision twenty-two of section 265.00 of this article which is
registered pursuant to paragraph (a) of subdivision sixteen-a of section
400.00 of this chapter or is included on an amended license issued
pursuant to section 400.00 of this chapter.
S
stuck in ny
Guest
If you read the PL def of a firearm, it includes weapons made from rifles, shotguns, and pistols. By your reading, PGO should be a firearm. Its not; its an other. By the NY def of firearm in the PL, the PGO is not a firearm because it was not made from a shotgun; it never was a shotgun. The Franklin gun never was a pistol.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You are missing the point. They will charge you as a pistol. Then you will have to prove that it isn't however, what you have fits their definition of a pistol in an Assault Weapon configuration. How will you defend against that? The Federal definition doesn't count in regards to Penal Law charges.
What definition of a pistol are you referring to? I can tell you it isn't the definition found in the nys penal code. Pistol is never defined in the nys penal code, if it was this would be very clear cut, it would either meet that definition or it wouldnt.
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S
stuck in ny
Guest
Perhaps somebody should make a sacrificial test case. Make the weapon described in the OP. Take it to the range and purposely get arrested for it.
Then, after getting some sort of ruling what it is, jump the shark, open the receivers and reveal the weapon to be not anything they said it is, but merely an 80%!
Then, after getting some sort of ruling what it is, jump the shark, open the receivers and reveal the weapon to be not anything they said it is, but merely an 80%!
S
stuck in ny
Guest
The PL 265.3 It says nothing about "others". Only cut down, modified, etc from something that was already a rifle, shotgun, or pistol.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There is no defintion for a pistol. But there is one for a pistol in an Assault Weapon configuration as I've referenced over and over. When they give it to the jury you will have to prove that it isn't as I've referenced over and over as well.
How will you prove it isn't being that Federal Definitions do not apply to NY Penal Law charges.
No there is not definition of a pistol in an Assault weapon configuration. The law says if it is a pistol, and has one of the listed features, it is an assault weapon.
If the gun in question is not a pistol, it can not be an assault weapon. To prove you were in possesion of an assault weapon, they must prove you have a pistol rifle or shotgun, and that it has one of the banned features in Pl 265.
You are jumping right to the feature test without first determining if it is a pistol rifle, shotgun or not. If it isn't a pistol, rifle or shotgun it can not be an assault weapon.
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S
stuck in ny
Guest
Question, did anybody do this during the Clinton ban? Or was this "other" idea just thought up recently.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Let me ask this. Same scenario but with a Glock pistol, forward grip and threaded barrel. Will they have to prove it's a pistol? As per the Feds it isn't. It's an AOW. NY will still charge you as having a pistol in an AW configuration.
This is no different.
S
stuck in ny
Guest
The glock is not 26"+.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Whats to stop me from claiming my desert eagle that I milled myself from a block of 4140 isn't an AW because even though it is over 50oz, it isn't a pistol ? Oh and I don't need to bother putting my glock that I built from an 80% on a permit, because it isnt a pistol either....
If they followed the law and logic this whole discussion would be moot and both pl265 and pl400 would be on the scrapheap with the 3/5th compromise. In much of NY the DA could claim your lunch was an AW and they would convict before he had the word out of his mouth.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And where does it say in NY Penal Laws that pistols have to be less than 26 inches?
If nys is not relying on the federal definition of pistol, why then does it consider a glock to be a pistol at all? If they aren't relaying on the federal definition of the word, then what definition of pistol are they using that the glock falls into?
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Either you homemade desert eagle, or home made glock would fit the federal definition of pistol. That is exactly what I am asserting, that because ny fails to define "pistol" we revert to the federal definition. In that case your desert eagle or glock meet the definition while the xo-26 does not.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Incorrect. The Supremacy Clause is in regards to a conflict of laws. Nowhere does it say it applies to lack of definitions.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It can as long as the magazine is fixed so as not to be considered an AW.
S
stuck in ny
Guest
You can't use a vg. That would make an nfa item, "AOW".
freddy
.308 Win
Ok great, so given that (fixed mag 10 round xo 26 r2) is it your opinion that in NY the only way to have this 11.5" barrel is by having it on the pistol permit? If so, then how does the mossberg shockwave acheive NY compliance? Or is the shockwave not compliant?