Legal non-NFA short barrel "other" or "firearm"

[Marine Cpl]

You are failing to understand that you aren't being charged for Criminal Possession of a Pistol. There is no such charge. You will be charged with Criminal Possession of a Firearm.

The definition of Firearm will be the one in question and if defaulted to the Federal one because the weapon you have is neither pistol nor SBR well you have yourself in more of a pickle now.

"Your Honor! My client does not have an SBR or a pistol. He has what the ATF considers a firearm."

You don't actually think they will just return the firearm back to you and let you go do you? You are either going to be charged with the NYS definition of Firearm if they declare it a pistol or the Federal definition of Firearm since there is a conflict.

 

[pmcjuryny]

You are failing to understand that you aren't being charged for Criminal Possession of a Pistol. There is no such charge. You will be charged with Criminal Possession of a Firearm.

The definition of Firearm will be the one in question and if defaulted to the Federal one because the weapon you have is neither pistol nor SBR well you have yourself in more of a pickle now.

"Your Honor! My client does not have an SBR or a pistol. He has what the ATF considers a firearm."

You don't actually think they will just return the firearm back to you and let you go do you?

Jesus christ, no.

Nys penal code defines "firearm", if you are charged under one of the provisions of nys Pl 265, the state must prove that you where in possesion of a firearm as defined in Pl 256.00.3. The fact that every gun, and even bare receivers is considered a firearm per federal law does not matter. Nys defines "firearm" that definition is the only one that matters for charges filed under Pl 265.

The question then is does the gun in question, the xo-26, meet the nys definition of a firearm. That's means is it one of the following


3. "Firearm" means
(a) any pistol or revolver; or
(b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or
(c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or
(d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or
(e)an assault weapon.

Nys penal law defines all of those types of guns except pistol and revolver. So what is a pistol or revolver. I assert you use the definition found in federal law. That means the xo-26 is not a pistol, that means it is not a firearm per nys Pl 265.00.3, that means you are not guilty of criminal possesion of a firearm.

The definition of firearm is clearly laid out in the penal code, it is "pistol" that is in question, not firearm.

The federal definition only comes in to play where nys has failed to explicitly define the terms with the law, it is not over riding terms that nys does define.

I think I have addressed most of the points you have made so far, so how about you address some of mine.

If nys does not use the federal definition of "pistol" whst does it use?

If other guns that have been classified as "other" are legal in ny, why would this gun not be.

Let's see both of those points addressed, and see if this can be a meaningful debate, or if you are going to just go back to one of the other points you have brought up in the past 5 pages, and try to make it again.

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[Marine Cpl]

Ok. I'll play. If NYS does not use the Federal Definition of pistol, what does it use?

I don't know is my answer.

Now answer my question. What does it use when they catch someone on the street with an unregistered AR pistol that has a foregrip?

Do they just call it a pistol and charge him as such even though it's now an AOW as per Federal Law. Or do they just let him go since it no longer is a pistol as per Federal definition.

 

[pmcjuryny]

Ok. I'll play. If NYS does not use the Federal Definition of pistol, what does it use?

I don't know is my answer.

Now answer my question. What does it use when they catch someone on the street with an unregistered AR pistol that has a foregrip?

Do they just call it a pistol and charge him as such even though it's now an AOW as per Federal Law. Or do they just let him go since it no longer is a pistol as per Federal definition.

Good question. And I don't have an answer for that, but perhaps they turn him over to the feds and let them sort it out.

Although unless it came from the factory with a second grip, it would have to have been a pistol at some point. There fore a person's possesion of it, within the state of new york with out it being amended to their pistol permit could be considered evidence that they were in possesion of an unregistered gun.

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Eta:

Rails have been coming on pistols for a long time are you aware of any cases where nys has charged and convicted someone for Criminal possesion of a firearm, based on the fact that their AOW was actually an unregistered pistol?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Good question. And I don't have an answer for that, but perhaps they turn him over to the feds and let them sort it out.

Although unless it came from the factory with a second grip, it would have to have been a pistol at some point. There fore a person's possesion of it, within the state of new york with out it being amended to their pistol permit could be considered evidence that they were in possesion of an unregistered gun.

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So now what happens if a cop removes your Franklin Armory foregrip?

My point is, it's not worth the ride. I think we can agree on that.

 

[pmcjuryny]

So now what happens if a cop removes your Franklin Armory foregrip?

My point is, it's not worth the ride. I think we can agree on that.

No, I do not agree that fear is a good reason not to exercise what few gun rights we have left in this state. We have been shit on constantly from left wing politicians and activist judges, I am not going to roll over and volunteer not to exercise even more of my rights out of fear.

I added this to my last response, but in case you don't go back and see it I am adding it here as well.

In regards to how the nys would treat someone with a AOW msnufactures by adding a vertical grip to a hand gun.

Rails have been coming on pistols for a long time are you aware of any cases where nys has charged and convicted someone for Criminal possesion of a firearm, based on the fact that their AOW was actually an unregistered pistol?

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[pmcjuryny]

So now what happens if a cop removes your Franklin Armory foregrip?

My point is, it's not worth the ride. I think we can agree on that.

Just want to add, if your going to go down this line of thinking, what happens when the cops throws 2lbs of coca in in your trunk. If it comes to the point of a dirty cop manufacturing evidence to use against you, all bets are off.

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[Marine Cpl]

Just want to add, if your going to go down this line of thinking, what happens when the cops throws 2lbs of coca in in your trunk. If it comes to the point of a dirty cop manufacturing evidence to use against you, all bets are off.

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I hear what you are saying but all sorts of things can come up missing when it goes to the lab for operability checks.

 

[Marine Cpl]

No, I do not agree that fear is a good reason not to exercise what few gun rights we have left in this state. We have been shit on constantly from left wing politicians and activist judges, I am not going to roll over and volunteer not to exercise even more of my rights out of fear.

I added this to my last response, but in case you don't go back and see it I am adding it here as well.

In regards to how the nys would treat someone with a AOW msnufactures by adding a vertical grip to a hand gun.

Rails have been coming on pistols for a long time are you aware of any cases where nys has charged and convicted someone for Criminal possesion of a firearm, based on the fact that their AOW was actually an unregistered pistol?

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No. AOW's are extremely rare in NYS.

 

[freddy]

I am feeling some clarity on this fellas, thank you!

 

[Marine Cpl]

pmcjuryny is correct on a lot of the points here. That also doesn't mean that since there is no definition for something, you will not get jammed up due to a lack of a definition for those that think this a foolproof loophole.

In my opinion, the average cop doesn't know the law in regards to AOW this, 26 inch that. If it looks like a pistol to them, that's what it will be to them. You then have to fight for your freedom.

Just saying.

 

[Airborneguy]

You guys are having quite the conversation over a front handgrip...

Slapping on a front grip doesn't change the defition of a particular firearm.

That's a pistol, end of story. You two have wasted a hell of a lot time on this. You're welcome.

 

[pmcjuryny]

You guys are having quite the conversation over a front handgrip...

Slapping on a front grip doesn't change the defition of a particular firearm.

That's a pistol, end of story. You two have wasted a hell of a lot time on this. You're welcome.

Not sure if you know this, but at a bare minimum the atf says you are wrong.

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[Marine Cpl]

You guys are having quite the conversation over a front handgrip...

Slapping on a front grip doesn't change the defition of a particular firearm.

That's a pistol, end of story. You two have wasted a hell of a lot time on this. You're welcome.

I was actually on his side until you mentioned it in another thread. It got me thinking and I had to agree with you.

A cop on the side of the road isn't going to say that you are good to go. He will say it is a pistol whether I agree with him or not.

As far as wasting time, arguing keeps me from being bored to death on my Metro North commute to work, while at work, and going home from work.

 

[Airborneguy]

I 100% guarantee you that in NY, someone carrying that "whatever" without a permit would be charged with CPW firearm.

 

[pmcjuryny]

pmcjuryny is correct on a lot of the points here. That also doesn't mean that since there is no definition for something, you will not get jammed up due to a lack of a definition for those that think this a foolproof loophole.

In my opinion, the average cop doesn't know the law in regards to AOW this, 26 inch that. If it looks like a pistol to them, that's what it will be to them. You then have to fight for your freedom.

Just saying.

This is where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If I where taking a gun like this out and about, I would sure as hell have copies of the pertain sections of laws and atf letters on hand. It's no garuntee, but it could help save you a very big headache.

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[Airborneguy]

As far as wasting time, arguing keeps me from being bored to death on my Metro North commute to work, while at work, and going home from work.

I wish I saw this earlier, I was stuck on the desk all day and surprisingly it was boring and uneventful.

 

[pmcjuryny]

I 100% guarantee you that in NY, someone carrying that "whatever" without a permit would be charged with CPW firearm.

I never said you couldn't be charged, but lots of innocent people get charged with crimes. If cops where the final arbiter of the law we wouldn't have to spend so much money on lawyers, judges building courts, having trials,etc

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[Marine Cpl]

I never said you couldn't be charged, but lots of innocent people get charged with crimes. If cops where the final arbiter of the law we wouldn't have to spend so much money on lawyers, judges building courts, having trials,etc

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And my point all along was in regards to the ride. All the printed out documents of laws you show the cop on the street will not stop the ride you will be taking.

 

[pmcjuryny]

And my point all along was in regards to the ride. All the printed out documents of laws you show the cop on the street will not stop the ride you will be taking.

They might or the might not, but considering you argued that it wasn't legal, and would still legally considered a pistol in court, you weren't arguing that it could get you arrested, you argued it wasn't legal.

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[Airborneguy]

It's not.

The near-instantaneously removeable front grip does not change any legal definition. It's like slapping a Cobra on a Prius and well, you know...

 

[Marine Cpl]

They might or the might not, but considering you argued that it wasn't legal, and would still legally considered a pistol in court, you weren't arguing that it could get you arrested, you argued it wasn't legal.

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The second post of this thread says different.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

It's not.

The near-instantaneously removeable front grip does not change any legal definition. It's like slapping a Cobra on a Prius and well, you know...

sorry man. it does. it makes a pistol an AOW.

it makes a 26 inch OAL 11.5 inch barrel firearm into an other.

really

edit to add it makes a featureless NY ar into an evil "asshat" weapon

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Although unless it came from the factory with a second grip, it would have to have been a pistol at some point. ?

no sir.

build the upper. put a Fwd grip on it. build lower. viola. "other"

 

[pmcjuryny]

The second post of this thread says different.

All the posts saying you will be convicted, and the arguement won't mean anything in court confirm it. You also claim that a fixed magazine is good to go while this is not, even though there is no law or precedent showing what method or process would legally be considered non-removeable. All your arguements where in regards to legally, not weather you could be arrested or not.

Maybe it's not how how you meant it, but it is certainly how you came off. You only takes about not being charged towards the end.


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[pmcjuryny]

no sir.

build the upper. put a Fwd grip on it. build lower. viola. AOW

That was in regards to the forward grip on a glock, although I guess if you did an 80% frame, but attached the forward grip before you put the slide on, the same could be applied. Although then it wouldn't be a glock either.

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[Marine Cpl]

All the posts saying you will be convicted, and the arguement won't mean anything in court confirm it. You also claim that a fixed magazine is good to go while this is not, even though there is no law or precedent showing what method or process would legally be considered non-removeable. All your arguements where in regards to legally, not weather you could be arrested or not.

Maybe it's not how how you meant it, but it is certainly how you came off. You only takes about not being charged towards the end.


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I agree with you that it isn't a pistol but I still believe you would be convicted of having one and that was the basis of my posts.

 

[pmcjuryny]

It's not.

The near-instantaneously removeable front grip does not change any legal definition. It's like slapping a Cobra on a Prius and well, you know...

Bullet Guy beat me to it, but it does, it really does. You saying it doesn't, doesn't mean anything. Unless you paid your 200$ tax to manufacture an aow, it turns your pistol into a violation of the national firearms act. That is unless your pistol is large enough then it just becomes an "other"

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[Eddie Gunks]

That was in regards to the forward grip on a glock, although I guess if you did an 80% frame, but attached the forward grip before you put the slide on, the same could be applied. Although then it wouldn't be a glock either.

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you got me before my edit....i was thinking "other " anyway.

but yeah. 80% etc etc. or you are right on the glock pistol lower

 

[Airborneguy]

I'd bet an entire paycheck on a conviction for CPW regarding this weapon. Find a case and we'll follow it and my bet stands.