The MOS system has some flaws. If you plan on putting the gun through any rigor the MOS system probably will fall short of expectations. Now the benefit of the MOS system is you can try different RDS's and find out which one works for you.
Lets talk Red Dots on handguns
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
whichever platform I decide on will be used as EDC and training gun, so yes Im going to shoot the shit outta it
@speedkills27 ok lets dive down this rabbit hole lol
First the easy part,, your first "question" as for the P320 and the Romeo, I hate the P320 more for the fact that Fuck Sig and their shit attitude towards it's customer and their whole "everything we make is perfect and if there is any issue it has to be the user not our product because its perfect" mentality.
The Romeo, my issue with that is, well its complete trash, only use would be for a range toy not an actual serious use defensive pistol.
Now on to the second part to take on, the MOS system. Trash.... Glock fucked that all up and came out with a sub-par cash grab design. Now S&W's CORE is a much better multi dot system (came out before the MOS), oh and the MOS is also available on the Gen 4 the gen it originally came out on.
So the main problem with those type systems is the optic sights slightly higher up than if the slide was specifically milled for the red dot making BUIS difficult to co-witness with (and honestly if this is going to be a carry gun once you pick the dot you want, what use is being able to mount multiple ones on). The next issue, which i believe is not as bad as when the MOS first came out, is the mounting plates were not all that secure and people were having the dots fly off and even hit themselves. Now at the same time, FN just released their new 509 that is a "MOS" style slide but has a completely different and awesome design not sure how to explain it sooo ill let the tube do it for me (downside of the 509 Tactical, you would have to ditch the threaded barrel and get 10 round mags)
So for host gun in my honest opinion (im a glock fanboyish) i would say Glock 19, or M&P 2.0, CZ P-10c seems to have figured all their minor bugs out and people are loving.... If you must a P320 (not the RX one, but one with a unmilled slide), or really any good handgun.
But please please consider if you are going to do this, do it correct and have the slide MILLED instead of the MOS style or even worse a dove tail mount, its getting less and less expensive to put a dot on a handgun but its still a bit of a "pay to play" but worth it, honestly once you go with a dot on a handgun and get past the learning curve you wont look back.... oh yea and please go with back up iron sights as well dont be one of those guys who cheaps out and doesnt have iron sights.
ok so now to the bread and butter if you are still with me. What DOT to go with. If this was just some plinking range toy this isnt that big of a deal, but since this is going to be a carry gun there is a short list of ones to look at and a list to not even consider.
Ones to avoid, well its a hella long list but i will say the SIG Romeo and Burris Fast Fire, Bushnell
Ones to Look at
Trijicon RMR (number 1)
Leupold Delta Point Pro (number 2 or 3)
Vortex (number 2 or 3) (ok this is where i am still learing, as they offer 2 different models, one is ok more range worthy, and then the other one is becoming really popular and seeming to be pretty ok)
Shield RMS and RMSc (with a caveat, not the most robust of the options but if i was to get say a G43 or M&P Shield because they are much smaller, so trade off but i dont really plan to own a baby gun so a baby size dot isnt really something i care about, this did fail some torture tests pretty badly but again trade off)
Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamic White paper on Red dot mounted duty guns, i also suggest checking out his youtube channel he has been doing a lot over the years with handgun reddots (you can even go back to see the first couple videos where he first tries them and says meh take it or leave it, and to now where they are the future and will eventually be on almost every duty and carry gun)
http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_c8da57977a8c4b53903192fa603fce6f.pdf
First the easy part,, your first "question" as for the P320 and the Romeo, I hate the P320 more for the fact that Fuck Sig and their shit attitude towards it's customer and their whole "everything we make is perfect and if there is any issue it has to be the user not our product because its perfect" mentality.
The Romeo, my issue with that is, well its complete trash, only use would be for a range toy not an actual serious use defensive pistol.
Now on to the second part to take on, the MOS system. Trash.... Glock fucked that all up and came out with a sub-par cash grab design. Now S&W's CORE is a much better multi dot system (came out before the MOS), oh and the MOS is also available on the Gen 4 the gen it originally came out on.
So the main problem with those type systems is the optic sights slightly higher up than if the slide was specifically milled for the red dot making BUIS difficult to co-witness with (and honestly if this is going to be a carry gun once you pick the dot you want, what use is being able to mount multiple ones on). The next issue, which i believe is not as bad as when the MOS first came out, is the mounting plates were not all that secure and people were having the dots fly off and even hit themselves. Now at the same time, FN just released their new 509 that is a "MOS" style slide but has a completely different and awesome design not sure how to explain it sooo ill let the tube do it for me (downside of the 509 Tactical, you would have to ditch the threaded barrel and get 10 round mags)
So for host gun in my honest opinion (im a glock fanboyish) i would say Glock 19, or M&P 2.0, CZ P-10c seems to have figured all their minor bugs out and people are loving.... If you must a P320 (not the RX one, but one with a unmilled slide), or really any good handgun.
But please please consider if you are going to do this, do it correct and have the slide MILLED instead of the MOS style or even worse a dove tail mount, its getting less and less expensive to put a dot on a handgun but its still a bit of a "pay to play" but worth it, honestly once you go with a dot on a handgun and get past the learning curve you wont look back.... oh yea and please go with back up iron sights as well dont be one of those guys who cheaps out and doesnt have iron sights.
ok so now to the bread and butter if you are still with me. What DOT to go with. If this was just some plinking range toy this isnt that big of a deal, but since this is going to be a carry gun there is a short list of ones to look at and a list to not even consider.
Ones to avoid, well its a hella long list but i will say the SIG Romeo and Burris Fast Fire, Bushnell
Ones to Look at
Trijicon RMR (number 1)
Leupold Delta Point Pro (number 2 or 3)
Vortex (number 2 or 3) (ok this is where i am still learing, as they offer 2 different models, one is ok more range worthy, and then the other one is becoming really popular and seeming to be pretty ok)
Shield RMS and RMSc (with a caveat, not the most robust of the options but if i was to get say a G43 or M&P Shield because they are much smaller, so trade off but i dont really plan to own a baby gun so a baby size dot isnt really something i care about, this did fail some torture tests pretty badly but again trade off)
Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamic White paper on Red dot mounted duty guns, i also suggest checking out his youtube channel he has been doing a lot over the years with handgun reddots (you can even go back to see the first couple videos where he first tries them and says meh take it or leave it, and to now where they are the future and will eventually be on almost every duty and carry gun)
http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_c8da57977a8c4b53903192fa603fce6f.pdf
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
ok after reading your post Im leaning towards the G19 for the fact that I own other Glocks with that frame size which would keep me from having to additionally by other accessories. Iv shot the Trijicon RMR on other peoples guns and like that sight so thats the way im leaning. Million dollar question: DO I send the stock factory slide to be milled or purchase an aftermarket slide like a Zev tech, I think Brownells has a private labeled one, etc? Originally my thoughts where to purchase an aftermarket milled bare slide then cannibalize the OEM internals. That way I could put the gun back to stock if I wanted/needed to for some reason. @Edwardteach72
honestly OEM slide or aftermarket is kind of a wash for the most part, the added benefit of sending a blank or OEM slide to be milled vs buying a cookie cutter milled slide, the cool part is if you want to run stock you can always put on a slide plate to cover the milled area (mostly for glocks, i think some places do M&P ones, and i know one company does CZ P-10c ones well i think) so if anything send out your OEM slide and buy the slide plate as well when you have them mill the slide.
premilled aftermarket slides are pretty good and would work, going to be a bit more upfront cost than getting the OEM slide milled (OEM milling with ameriglo black suppressor sights and cerakote $200ish) but with some companies, there are just soo many out there to choose from, they do a pre programmed milling which is no different than buying a premilled slide while others do custom "pro cuts" like Primary Machine who measure the red dot (you have to send the dot with the slide) and then adjust the milling program for a better fit
The red dots are awesome!!! It does take a bit to get good at finding the dot and some are turned off by at first and give up on it.
On my G34 that I use for uspsa I started with the irons and used it for 3 or 4 matches. I put a dot on it and my scores improved dramatically the first time out with it. No comparison.
I have no issue with the Glock MOS. I have had a dot on mine for a couple of thousand of rounds without issue and a friend with 4 MOS pistols has well over 10 thousand rounds without issue either. The dots flying off is a bunch of crap!!! It only happens it the wrong sized screws are used. I feel if you cant determine the correct sized screw maybe you shouldnt carry a gun. IMO a milled slide would have an advantage since the dot would sit lower on the pistol.
My dot is a Burris fast fire 3 and has been great as well, never looses zero. I had it on a 22 pistol for awhile before putting it on the MOS and still has the orignal battery. The battery cap did loosen up once(after 3 years) so something to keep an eye on. I would not have a problem using it on a defensive pistol form my experience. The biggest down side is it sits a little high so tall supressor sights would need to be used to co-wittness. Also the dot is not very crisp no a real issue but not as nice as the vortex and RMR that are both unbelievably crisp!!
My friend has a RMR and the rest Vortex, all have been great as well. He did have a vortex go bad and the CS was fantastic. I think he prefers the Vortex to the RMR as do I. From the looks the RMR seems most durable.
For those who are considering a dot on a pistol I would not recommend a 3 MOA dot. That is what mine is and works well but at pistol distances the 6 MOA dot would be a much better option imo. I find the 6 MOA is easier to find making it quicker. My friend has both 3 and 6 MOA and reported that shooting an outside match in the bright sun the 3 MOA was hard to see.
I have considered sending my G26 slide out to get it milled for a dot, but may consider going to a sig P365 for carry.
On my G34 that I use for uspsa I started with the irons and used it for 3 or 4 matches. I put a dot on it and my scores improved dramatically the first time out with it. No comparison.
I have no issue with the Glock MOS. I have had a dot on mine for a couple of thousand of rounds without issue and a friend with 4 MOS pistols has well over 10 thousand rounds without issue either. The dots flying off is a bunch of crap!!! It only happens it the wrong sized screws are used. I feel if you cant determine the correct sized screw maybe you shouldnt carry a gun. IMO a milled slide would have an advantage since the dot would sit lower on the pistol.
My dot is a Burris fast fire 3 and has been great as well, never looses zero. I had it on a 22 pistol for awhile before putting it on the MOS and still has the orignal battery. The battery cap did loosen up once(after 3 years) so something to keep an eye on. I would not have a problem using it on a defensive pistol form my experience. The biggest down side is it sits a little high so tall supressor sights would need to be used to co-wittness. Also the dot is not very crisp no a real issue but not as nice as the vortex and RMR that are both unbelievably crisp!!
My friend has a RMR and the rest Vortex, all have been great as well. He did have a vortex go bad and the CS was fantastic. I think he prefers the Vortex to the RMR as do I. From the looks the RMR seems most durable.
For those who are considering a dot on a pistol I would not recommend a 3 MOA dot. That is what mine is and works well but at pistol distances the 6 MOA dot would be a much better option imo. I find the 6 MOA is easier to find making it quicker. My friend has both 3 and 6 MOA and reported that shooting an outside match in the bright sun the 3 MOA was hard to see.
I have considered sending my G26 slide out to get it milled for a dot, but may consider going to a sig P365 for carry.
fuck the p365.....
i do agree with the 6.5 moa over the 3.25 (speaking RMR sizes some do the solide 3 and 6) but eventually i plan on going down to the 3.25 moa once i have had a good solid amount of time running a red dot, i have only had a dot for about a yearish on my CZ P-07 but need to send my glock out to get milled as i carry my G19 more. But the 6.5 lends better to getting past that learning curve, the one thing with the dot is it will show you how much your hands are not surgeon steady and the smaller the dot the more the shake will show. I had the Burris FF3 with a dove tail mount on my CZ at one point, sorry would still not recommend the FF for a defensive/duty gun, but it really did show every movement and almost turned me away from the idea of a red dot, but i was convinced the concept was solid and i was the weak link, moved on to a milled slide and an RMR (which honestly i wish they had clearer glass and a crisper dot, but battery life and durability is king for me in this situation so the RMR currently is the only dot i will run) with a 6.5 moa dot and it was night and day.
i will say the best advice i have seen and what worked for me to help pick up the dot because yes that is going to be weird at first, dont even waste time at the range, pick a spot at home hell even put up a IDPA or w.e. target and just practice presenting the gun from compressed ready.
Shit i still will sit at home and pick out a light switch and work 10 15 20 reps of presentation and picking up the dot, i have even noticed that my work with irons has gotten better and faster
If you do start looking in hard to getting the slide milled or ordering an aftermarket one please start a thread. I have been following and finding a bunch of different people do it with some kick ass cuts out there. As of right now I have 2 different ones in mind for builds.
right now i am debating on getting just the rmr milling from primary machine or Battlwerx but leaning on getting Battlwerx slide milling for the rest of the slide, currently the two companies are with in $3 for the rmr milling
I'm really lusting for this one on a G19 build.
Glock - MRK III Reaper
And I'm on the fence on this for my G43. They haven't officially released it for the 43 yet, but I've seen it on their Instagram. My problem will be I want an RMSc on it and they don't do that cut.
G19 G3 Reptile RMR Port
Glock - MRK III Reaper
And I'm on the fence on this for my G43. They haven't officially released it for the 43 yet, but I've seen it on their Instagram. My problem will be I want an RMSc on it and they don't do that cut.
G19 G3 Reptile RMR Port
dammit why you have to go and show me those, they both look super sweet. im over here trying to be more K.I.S. with Enhanced Gripper Slide Cut or Ported Gripper Slide Cut
and you have to show me them sexy slides
Ya now after having enhanced serrations I find myself wanting more aggressive ones. I also am leaning towards minimal windows. I don't mind having them there but they need to be small and in the right spots for me to feel comfortable with.
Here's the runner up but they only do billet ones.
RAPTOR ONE GLOCK BILLET SLIDES | DV8 Dynamics
honestly for me, both serrations and windows are aesthetics only once you add the red dot, since the red dot will help with all kinds of slide manipulation not just slamming on the RDS but even gripping, (i dont do "press checks") front serretions honestly do nothing for me but look nice cause they really do and windows im not worried about anything crazy getting inside and stopping the gun (as weird as that sounds based on many of my other statements) i think for just a normal carry or even a leo gun windows are not going to cause any issues (i really like jagerwerks para and double para windows on the top of the slide, side of the slide is meh for me)
I agree with most of this, but have seen windows that are excessive and in bad places that could cause a problem. But I would say 90% of them are good to go. I do like to press check using the front serrations. I also find myself using them for malfunctions.
completely agree, i know many will argue shit will get in and cause a malfunction, but i dont really see that unless you dump it in a pool of mud
but then there are slides such as this
perosnally i want to see how much my red dot (ie RMR RM07) + battery weighs and have that amount of slide milled out between say windows and added serrations, thus offsetting the additional weight and adding more reliability
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
Currently exploring Primary Machines' website. I will start a thread when i get all my ducks in a row
i am a huge fan of these guys, they have been one of the few companies that have helped bring the CZ P-07 and P-09 into the lime light (other than cz customs and cgw) i was 2 days away from getting my P-7 milled by them for an RMR but they changed out their front sight offering from a blacked out ameriglo to a fiber optic and sadly thats not what i wanted, after i got my slide back a few weeks later they offered a different option. its a whole thing, i cant fault them, not to tute my own horn but i do believe i am one of a handfull of CZ owners that first had their slides milled for a red dot and shortly after it took off then the 10c came out.
the only thing i am not really crazy about is that Primary does not bore sight the irons and optic after milling, super minor thing not a big deal but i know many other places do that... i still 100% suggest their work, Bruce (the owner) is a super awesome dude and will not do you wrong, worse case scenario you have to spend 20-50 rounds sighting in your freshly milled slide
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
I just read on their Q&A that they do zero the sights and optics
wait are they doing that now at no charge? sadly i havent kept up lately (lot of stuff blocked on works wifi and i am working 72 hour work weeks) last i knew they didnt bore sight anything, but if they are doing that i 20000% suggest their work, if you even have any doubt go to the CZ original forum and check out the posts on the polymer section pretty much anything mechanical mod related is Cajun Gunworks, anything slide modification and compensator (and soon match barrel) is id say 85% primary work
i think im missing something, sounds like still need to zero when you get the slide back
speedkills27
6.5 Creedmoor
shit! my bad. small lapse in my reading comprehension. lets say my dyslexia kicked in
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So I know a lot of people have the mindset, "I want what the military wants because it has to be the best"
That isn't always the truth, a lot of the time its "the best for the cheapest" ie there is better options buttttt we dont want to spend the money.
In other cases yeah they get top quality, and some of those cases are spec ops
Well looks like Trijicom RMR type 2 just got picked by USSOCOM for handgun red dots
https://www.tactical-life.com/news/trijicon-ussocom-handgun-reflex-sight
That isn't always the truth, a lot of the time its "the best for the cheapest" ie there is better options buttttt we dont want to spend the money.
In other cases yeah they get top quality, and some of those cases are spec ops
Well looks like Trijicom RMR type 2 just got picked by USSOCOM for handgun red dots
https://www.tactical-life.com/news/trijicon-ussocom-handgun-reflex-sight
New red dot review
What barrel is that cause that is the setup I'm working on now with my Gen5 G34
Jaywmustang
.308 Win
It’s a 7” Kkm for the 10mm
I was looking at a ported barrel for my build.
Jaywmustang
.308 Win
I think kkm will port them. I think u just need to call them
Thanks