Liability with an APEX trigger.

[NYGuns]

They will know and they will use it against you in court if they have to. "He had a modified, feather-like trigger that makes it easier to use, he was bloodthirsty and wanted to squeeze that hairpin trigger". The courts don't like gun owners in this state.

This is not from me, this is from my readings in "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" by Massad Ayoob. He stresses (and gives specific) examples of the importance of leaving your EDC (mostly) unmodified for this reason.

Simply put, in Massad's (and now my) opinion, the trigger is the last thing you want to modify on your EDC. At least not in this state.

 

[fartgamer]

Mas Ayoob is just some old guy from the revolver days and not credible according to willie.

 

[stokes]

I have the NY trigger in my Glock.I like it,because I'm used to it.Been using it for over 20 yrs.Before that I used a revolver.I had a 1911 that was modified with a super light target trigger.When I retired I thought I'd like to carry the .45 sometimes,but not with that trigger.When practicing with the light trigger I would often get unintentional double taps.Not good in a stressful,defensive situation where there may be unintended targets nearby.I had a local gunsmith rework the trigger in the 45 to be heavier.I now have an XD 45 that I would like to have the trigger pull increased,but havent looked into doing it yet,its not as light as the 45 was,but still a bit lighter than I like.In my mind,a light trigger is better for target shooting,not a defensive situation.

 

[HEX]

This is worth watching on this topic. Not exactly comprehensive, or anything more than one opinion, but he gets to triggers and trigger jobs.

 

[Bananabandit]

Not saying itll happen but you might shoot your eye out, kid

 

[71velle]

This is an argument that comes up often, at the end of the day one needs to make their own decision of whats best. I believe in the thinking of dont do anything to your pistol that you wouldnt need to explain in court.

I would be more concerned with having a punisher slide cover plate than a aftermarket trigger.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

As a few have already questioned, are there any known cases of a person being jammed up for a simple modification like a trigger? I think this is one of those stupid things that was first brought up by someone that wanted to make themselves seem knowledgeable/important and just doesn't die. To me it's on par with not dry firing because it will break the firing pin or knockdown power (because 45 is the only one that has knockdown power).

 

[Marine Cpl]

Mas Ayoob is just some old guy from the revolver days and not credible according to willie.

Correct. When someone says that you shouldn't modify your gun because you'll get hung in court and then says that you should make your trigger heavier with a NY1 trigger and also recommends carrying ammo that doesn't pass FBI specs and also recommends the crush grip over the thumbs forward grip that actually places more hand real estate on the gun and is higher up closer to the bore, I don't lend him much credibility.

Let's keep this matter on the subject at hand rather than looking for ways to go tit for tat and making things personal because you don't like that I told you about primer drag.

 

[Saltwater60]

If this ever occurred I would make the arguement that I added the trigger because it has made me more accurate. That is if they even know. I highly doubt they check these things or would ever know.

 

[FrankenCub]

If this ever occurred I would make the arguement that I added the trigger because it has made me more accurate.

Which equates to less chance of innocent bystanders getting hit.
I see no reason and defensive gun should ever have a crappy trigger! There's no excuse for it. As for the NY trigger, I have the part in a bag that came out of my G19, biggest POS I've ever squeezed. A crappy trigger IMO is a safety issue waiting to happen.

 

[Cleck]

When you give him the Article 35 bit, watch him turn that into a "so bloodthirsty he gets off on legal jargon when he's not killing people" line of shit.

 

[fartgamer]

Correct. When someone says that you shouldn't modify your gun because you'll get hung in court and then says that you should make your trigger heavier with a NY1 trigger and also recommends carrying ammo that doesn't pass FBI specs and also recommends the crush grip over the thumbs forward grip that actually places more hand real estate on the gun and is higher up closer to the bore, I don't lend him much credibility.

Let's keep this matter on the subject at hand rather than looking for ways to go tit for tat and making things personal because you don't like that I told you about primer drag.

You didn’t tell me a thing about primer drag, don’t pat yourself on the back, I knew this for years as other guns have had the same non issue.

 

[NYGuns]

Mas Ayoob is just some old guy from the revolver days and not credible according to willie.

Maybe so, but he knows more than me and gave multiple case examples in the book. Enough for me to not modify my EDC triggers.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You didn’t tell me a thing about primer drag, don’t pat yourself on the back, I knew this for years as other guns have had the same non issue.

Not like that but that's the other thread. We can discuss it there.

 

[Acer-m14]

didn't some LEO guy get jammed up over the writing on his AR dust cover

 

[Edwardteach72]

didn't some LEO guy get jammed up over the writing on his AR dust cover

Completely different situation. It was brought in, it said "you're fucked" and was also a sketchy shoot

"You're fucked" vs a trigger to help make accurate shots to lower possible misses and hitting something unintentional

 

[Edwardteach72]

Oh and he was acquitted

‘You’re Fucked’: The Acquittal of Officer Brailsford and the Crisis of Police Impunity

 

[Edwardteach72]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...issible-daniel-shaver-murder-trial/648709001/

 

[Acer-m14]

@Edwardteach72 .. still a lot of BS over some writing

 

[Edwardteach72]

@Edwardteach72 .. still a lot of BS over some writing

Agreed. But again it was mostly due to being a sketchy shoot, and also the dust cover was against company policy. So I know a lot of people try to use that situation (not saying you were) to tell people that all guns must be stock, but there was a lot more at work in that situation other than just the wording

 

[Acer-m14]

@Edwardteach72 yep .. i wasn't .. just saying .. what the DA can do to fk with someone .. oh u had this ammo .. u had this trigger .. u had this red dot .. you had this IMR and so on ..

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

@Edwardteach72 u had this red dot .. you had this IMR and so on ..

Hmmm good point. I see a trend of putting red dots on a pistol. Some even say it's the future. How do you think that will look? They can say it's a heat seeking laser device that makes it so that you can't miss. You can be a sniper and shoot people from 100s of yards away. You can say anything about any modification but at the end of the day hopefully facts will prevail.

 

[MikeyCNY]

They will know and they will use it against you in court if they have to. "He had a modified, feather-like trigger that makes it easier to use, he was bloodthirsty and wanted to squeeze that hairpin trigger". The courts don't like gun owners in this state.

This is not from me, this is from my readings in "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" by Massad Ayoob. He stresses (and gives specific) examples of the importance of leaving your EDC (mostly) unmodified for this reason.

Simply put, in Massad's (and now my) opinion, the trigger is the last thing you want to modify on your EDC. At least not in this state.

In the book "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca he goes into this... I'm due for my annual re-read, but he basically says that a good shoot is a good shoot, whether you had a 4 lb trigger or a 10 lb trigger. If anything you'd be able to articulate (if you chose to take the stand, not always recommended) that a lighter trigger was actually SAFER. Look at all of the police shootings where they miss dozens of shots, and the gun has a 12 lb trigger. My first pistol was a Beretta Px4 and I hated the DA/SA trigger.

Almost everyone installs an aftermarket trigger in their AR.. (myself included)

For the record, my M&P Shield (gen1) has an Apex trigger, my M&P 2.0 Compact has factory trigger (buttery smooth) and my Home Defense gun is an M&P 2.0 Fullsize with flat Apex trigger. Just make sure it is rock-solid reliable.

I have a lot of respect for Ayoob, and <deity> knows he's been in court more than some judges, but I'm comfortable with an aftermarket trigger, assuming you aren't using a 1 lb competition 'feather' trigger on it...

 

[dsdmmat]

This is one of these IDK scenario questions.
The State:
Oh you put a laser on your gun?
Oh you put an extended magazine in your gun?
Oh you put night sights on your gun?
Oh you had your gun accurized by a gunsmith?
Oh you changed out some springs?
Oh you changed your grips out?

Me: yeah so?

 

[dwa12479]

Some years back a friend gave me a slide end plate for my G19 with the Punisher logo on it. That's something I haven't put on, nor will I. I could see that possibly bringing some heat if the gun was used in self defense.

 

[Tisto]

While I don't see any real issues with most functional improvements to your carry gun of choice, I do believe that any modifications should be carefully considered. An improved trigger, whether an after-market drop-in assembly or a professional gunsmith's fine polish job, should pose very little if any legal ramifications should the weapon be used in a defensive incident. AS LONG AS ALL SAFETIES ARE STILL INTACT AND FULLY FUNCTIONAL.

As stated in both of the video clips above, sayings, colors, pictures, and other similar modifications can be a great hinderance in your defence, and should be avoided.

Ammunition choice COULD be an issue to a certain extent, and for different reasons I believe. First, I believe that you should ALWAYS carry common FACTORY ammunition.

First reason: In the event that you shoot in self defense, your ammunition choice will be called into question * IF * it can be shown as "extreme". By that, I mean should you carry some kind of bullet that advertises itself as " fragmenting into (pick a number) razor sharp pieces designed for maximum damage " <oh, God , I wish I could remember the solid copper ammunition I've seen - it's NOT FROM BARNES - > ...then the prosecuting attourney will try to show that you INTENDED to kill someone, in this case, the person that you were threatened by.

Second reason: FACTORY AMMUNITION IS LESS LIKELY TO FAIL. I have loaded and shot literally TENS of THOUSANDS of rounds of handloaded ammunition, both shotshell and metallic. Although failures are EXTREMELY rare, THEY DO HAPPEN. I am not willing to take the chance that a round may not fire when I most need it to, if I can avoid it. That being said, if the only choice I had was handloads, then by all means, use them.

Another reason NOT to carry handloads is, no matter what the load is, it could be a soft lead wadcutter with just enough powder to get it out of the barrel, the prosecutor is going to paint that load as especially deadly. " Mr. Jones here was so evil in his intentions to kill someone, that he went to great lengths to create ammunition because factory ammunition wasn't deadly enough for him !" Remember, the jury is going to be stacked with people that don't know ANYTHING about guns, and frankly, don't WANT to either. Most will be flat-out ANTI's.


On a side note, a few years ago when a certain large outdoors outfitter store opened here in the Buffalo area, I heard a young salesman in the ammo dept. ask an older gentleman if he could help him find anything in particular. The man went on to say that he wanted some .38 special ammo to carry, and that he usually carried handloads. The young salesman said, and it may be paraphrased, but the meaning is not lost here, " Oh, Jeez !! Don't EVER carry handloads !! That's a mandatory 10 year sentance if you get caught " Now, I firmly believe that the salesman actually believes that, but THAT is the kind of hearsay that gets people in trouble. To this day, when I'm in that store and that young salesman asks me if I need his help, I just say "No, thanks" and go find someone else to help me.

 

[redtail]

Which equates to less chance of innocent bystanders getting hit.
I see no reason and defensive gun should ever have a crappy trigger! There's no excuse for it. As for the NY trigger, I have the part in a bag that came out of my G19, biggest POS I've ever squeezed. A crappy trigger IMO is a safety issue waiting to happen.

A good knowledgeable attorney would also use the fact that hp penetrate barriers less and therefore are a safer more “compassionate” choice for carry option.

 

[TheMoneyPit]

I was toying with upgrading the connector on my edc Glock to clean up the trigger pull and found this video while searching. The author did a good job looking into some court cases which brought up trigger weight and I found it compelling enough to decide it wasn’t worth modifying. The info isn’t anything crazy but just goes to show guilty until proven innocent is the new norm even if you defend yourself against a total thug scumbag.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I've found reloads to be more reliable than factory. I've found factory ammo that had primers upside down. Also plenty of misfires. As far as triggers. Is there someone testing the weight with a guage? I mean don't they just unload it, take pictures and put it in an evidence locker? You guys are way too paranoid about this stuff.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I've found reloads to be more reliable than factory. I've found factory ammo that had primers upside down. Also plenty of misfires. As far as triggers. Is there someone testing the weight with a guage? I mean don't they just unload it, take pictures and put it in an evidence locker? You guys are way too paranoid about this stuff.

They may "test fire" it one round for function testing