Furthermore I am curious as to if preventing theft of a firearm is enough justification for a private citizen to use lethal force. I think it should be, no telling what a thief might do with a stolen firearm.
MAN TRIES TO ROB PEOPLE IN A CONCEALED CARRY CLASS! HE GETS SHOT BY EVERYONE!
- Thread starter PutnamCharlie
- Start date
Good question. Is it a robbery? I would say no. At least not at first. It was a larceny. DF is not authorized for larceny. Could the case be made that once he was in possession you were in fear for your life? Most likely. It might also depend on his actions. Did he place the stolen gun in his pocket and walk away or did he make a threat or a threatening motion? I think this would end up in grand jury for sure. You'd probably survive it but who knows.
I'm saying if a person is trying to steal a gun in my vicinity I think I should be permitted to shoot them as I think the risk of allowing that person to have that gun is too high. What does the law say however?
I broke down what the law says. Is he stealing out of a bag like in this video or is he stealing it by force and violence from a person? Makes a big difference. One is larceny and one is robbery. Larceny = no. Robbery = yes.
The law doesn't take into account tge potentially catastrophic consequences of allowing a thief to make of with a gun? I recognize laws are frequently fucked up, I just think that lethal force should be unilaterally permitted in maintaining weapon security.
Nope. He could be stealing the weapon to sell for cash. Doesn't mean he is going to shoot anyone or that anyone is in any danger. It would need to come down to another factor and if you could get the grand jury to see you had a reasonable fear for your life. You would want to show a threatening motion etc. Taking a gun out of a bag and tucking it in my wasteland and walking the other way out the door would not justify DF. Leave the area and call police.
The law is wrong on this. I think anyone brazen enough to try to steal a firearm amidst a group of armed people at a class shows a dangerous mentally ill state.
It's a shitty situation for sure. You'd really need to make the connection that you feared for your life. It's hard to say. If it was stolen and stashed away you're going to have a hard time. If it's stolen and in his hand that would be a much easier case to make.
Criminal + Gun = fear for my life.
I'm saying if I am at a class and I see somebody not from that class reach into a receptical that I know contains a gun and I may draw on that person and issue a halt command. Next move is on that person but if the hand comes out with a gun I'm sending it.
@OnSight Firearms Training what should we do in this situation?
If the grand jury agrees with you then god bless ya. I won't lose any sleep over it.
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
I'm going to be a contrarian here.
I don't think someone stealing a gun should be treated differently than someone stealing anything else. A gun is just one of many things that can harm people.
I do believe however that people should be able to use lethal force to protect all of their property.
I don't think someone stealing a gun should be treated differently than someone stealing anything else. A gun is just one of many things that can harm people.
I do believe however that people should be able to use lethal force to protect all of their property.
I disagree. Stealing any kind of weapon, firearms in particular, represents a grave threat to society at large, therfore wide latitude should be given to the citizen in preventing such.
I see where youre coming from and you have a point but there still needs to be something more than just the object taken. Were you robbed? Or did you leave something unattended and had someone else walk off with it?
By your logic, someone could steal a screen door from Home Depot and walk off with it, and someone else could steal an axe or hammer and they should be shot. You can see where it falls apart and that is probably why what you propose isnt a law.
Two points-
1 I do not advocate for lethal force to be taken by a private citizen in the event of a firearm theft after the fact. I am talking about in the moment, you are right there in easy shot range of a bad guy while he is obtaining a gun. If you are off at some distance or show up as the thief has booked it then yes, Call the police, let them handle it.
2 A hammer or axe does not present near the threat as a firearm. With a melee weapon I have the luxury to wait and see what the intent is. Unless I am point blank and ill intent is obvious. Also it is a more reasonable assumption that a person obtaining a hammer or axe is more likely intending to use such as something other than a weapon. A person stealing a gun can be reasonably assumed to not be intending to use it to bang nails in or "Ah, he just wants some range time". A person stealing a gun can be reasonably assumed to have deadly intent.
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1. If the gun is just taken out of someones bag you don't know the situation or intent. You gonna just shoot anyone who takes a gun from a bag? Maybe the other guy stole it from him earlier and he is retrieving it. There are just too many unknowns. Unless it is taken in the course of a robbery, DF can not be used. That is the law. Absent something else, ex: "Im going to kill you" as the gun is removed from the bag, its a no-go.
2. Your last post stated "any weapon" and now you are changing to "firearm" only. In example 1 you claim to know the persons violent intent. However in example 2 all of the sudden you can be sure the intent is not an intent of violence. It just doesn't add up. The man stealing the axe could be walking right toward a group of people at the exit with it in his hands. That's why I pointed out what the actual law is and why there isn't a clause that is similar to your proposals.
No, I would have said something... even if it could have been his friend, brother or sister. If I'm sitting in a class for a few hours, than someone else other than the person that place his bag there starts rummaging through it. I'm going to ask him "can I help you? " And let him explain what he's doing going through someone else's bag. (I know it's a loaded question, so I'm ready for what comes next.) If you don't feel comfortable in the confrontation I understand. But I have a problem with people stealing another persons belonging right in front of my face.
Nah, I'm not into football. I grew in the in the city and I've dealt with thieves.
I HATE when someone takes/steals something that doesn't belong to them.
When I said it's a load question, that meant I expect a fight of some sort to follow..
Not a hero. Soldiers, cops, firemen, nurses are hero's..
chevusa, I really don't care what you think. waste of my time.
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Alright some fair points there, however let us constrain ourselves to the scenario at hand- attempted theft of a firearm at a firearms training class.
Of the classes I have attended the sequence of events breaks done mostly the same evertime
Before the class the students dribble in over time, typically meeting up in the parking lot of the facility to be used, for live fire training this would be the parking lot of a range.
People show up, they get out and start talking, the talk invariably turns to what gear and guns one has brought and so on and so forth. Then there is a safety brief with the instructor and then the unpacking of guns, gear and ammo. The up shot here being that everyone knows by now who is who and what guns everyone has brought, who they belong to and what cases, bags ect they are in.
If a thief were to show up it would be obvious, the would be immediately recognized as not being part of the group. Furthermore it would be recognized that said stranger is teaching into a receptical that is known to belong to someone other than said thief and containing a firearm likewise known to belong to someone other than said same thief. It would be likely that the instructor would be the first one to notice said thief is such said robbery attempt as the students are likely to have their attention focused down range. However if it were I that first noticed I would first issue a challenge and command, whether it be the traditional "HALT! WHO GOES THERE?" or the more likely "Dude! Who are you?! What the fuck are you doing!? STOP!!" thus serving as verbal notice to wouldbe thief and alerting everyone else present that something is amiss.
If said thief halts then we take things from there, if said their ignores me and takes hold of someone else's weapon I immediately assume hostile intent and I may well draw and issue a second challenge and command. Whether or not I shoot depends on whether I think tge weapon is loaded or not. Most likely it is unloaded and physical restraint ensues. If however tge weapon is loaded I'm fucking sending it and I don't think that is at all unreasonable.
Regarding the scenario of an non student taking back a previously stolen gun from a student, who therfore intended on participating in a class with a stolen gun in close proximity to and in a location and time known to the non student victim is, IMO, less likely than if one were to have their dick bitten off by a shark, at an aquarium, while being simultaneously struck by lightning......... but I digress......
Each situation is different. I totally feel comfortable. I interact with idiots daily. Nice try though. Your "can I help you" won't deter anyone. In fact they will probably be the ones "helping" you. I know that in your situation that you created in your head that you know exactly whats going on and step in as the big hero. We've all heard these stories before about what people like you would have done. The fact is you weren't there and you cant sit home and watch a video and tell everyone how you would have saved the day. You aren't going to be sitting staring and watching everyone else's bags. If you did it'd probably be yours that ends up being stolen.
In this context. "May I help you?" is just a polite, minimally confrontational way of sayingEach situation is different. I totally feel comfortable. I interact with idiots daily. Nice try though. Your "can I help you" won't deter anyone. In fact they will probably be the ones "helping" you. I know that in your situation that you created in your head that you know exactly whats going on and step in as the big hero. We've all heard these stories before about what people like you would have done. The fact is you weren't there and you cant sit home and watch a video and tell everyone how you would have saved the day. You aren't going to be sitting staring and watching everyone else's bags. If you did it'd probably be yours that ends up being stolen.
"I know what you're up to now get the fuck on."
Ok if you're writing the story you can make it anything you want. Do you pull up in a cool car? What music is playing in the background when you step out? You can see how this is silly to try and create a situation in your head. If someone enters class that doesn't belong the instructor is in charge and should question them and take the appropriate steps. If your life is in immediate danger, follow A35. That is all that can be said. Boasting about "fucking sending it" online isn't a great idea. If you ever did end up involved in a shooting it will not be a good look when this text is presented in a courtroom. Just sayin'.
What the fuck are you talking about? I am relating the event that actually happened to my personal experiences with classes I have taken. I am simply stating what course of action I think is reasonable. Said course of action includes verbal intervention first and foremost followed by imeasured, elevated responses with lethal force being the final resort. All in response to an interloper attempting to abscond with and potentially use a deadly weapon.
I also highly doubt this exchange would show up in any court proceedings. We are anonymous here and while it would be easy enough to identify me it would have to occur to someone to make a connection to a real world event and and this obscure thread on an obscure forum.
Hey if you know exactly whats going on then good for you. Just know, DF is not a justification in A35 for a larceny. Taking something out of an unattended bag is exactly that. It's a no-go.
If you're investigated in a questionable shooting your electronic devices will be in a lab.
I guess the crux of my argument is that theft involving a firearm is more than just larceny. That would be an argument my lawyer would have to attend to. Now if you don't mind, I have to incinerate my phone.
The argument cannot be made. It simply is not in the law. I know your feelings but I also feel the speed limit should be 85. Doesn't make it so. A larceny is a larceny. There is no clause depicting certain objects being stolen. It could be a pack of gum or a AR pistol. Doesn't make any difference (as per A35).
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
Another thread off the rails.
My argument does not revolve around tge theft so much as it revolves around criminal with a gun regardless of how he came to possess it. I have to imagine that a person engaged in a felony with a weapon in his hand is something that a decent lawyer should be able to at least have a jury consider as justifiable cause.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Aloha snack bar!
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Actually there’s another video out and in the class the guy said he is touching his firearm. The guy is a felon and he isn’t even allowed to own a firearm, he shouldn’t have been in that class the first place but obviously the people who run that class aren’t vetting the people.
But if I correctly remember an unloaded firearm isn’t even considered a deadly weapon. A deadly weapon is loaded (correct me if I’m wrong. @GOPerfect or @Airborneguy) Wouldn’t he need to have a deadly weapon and or be using the dangerous instrument actively to use DF/DPF?