Mek ever hear of a .308 Arrow?

[dsdmmat]

Arrow Arms: Custom AR Rifles :: The .308 Arrow

I thought it was an interesting read but, found myself asking what is the question this answered. If someone were going to go that route I figure Remington's 30 AR would be a better way to go.

I was thinking a 22PPC in a bolt action AR15 single shot would be a fun gun.

 

[meketrefe]

Hi,
I saw that one day but didn't study it closely. It seems to me like more of the same. I might be wrong but it looks like a
30x39*30 rebranded.
IMO the 30 and 338 calibers make little sense in the AR15. One can get more from the 7mm and below or them jump
into the 35 and fast powders that it what happens wiht the 35 gunner that trully outperforms this one and even
the 308 itself out of 16" barrels.
I mean one could go with the WSM and all that but so much complexity for something that has limited value in
that platform.
Remington made several mistakes with the RAR otherwise today it could have a huge following:
A) Odd bolt dimensions vs. the standard .470 (308 type bolt face) that could be delivered with a custom extension
inside the same AR15 stnadard shank to provide full power capabilties.
B) They didn't sell brass that only helped killing this cartrige.
C) The biggest mistake was not making it in the 7mm and also the marketing that is designed based on the
spaghetti approach (Throw it and see if sticks). This didn't only killed the 30 rar but so many other projects like
the 6.8 SPC. This was great because others took it where remington left off and took it to the next level.
Remington can make very nice things but lately they are also ruining a lot of things specially because of their
lack of commitment to follow through.
Funny thing is they are promoting the Gen II like if it was gold but you can get a DPMS Gen 1 with new light
weight uppers and lowers in about the same weight range that is a stronger platform.
They need to hire new executives to focus in true innovation.

Anyway if you are interested in short 30 caliber cats check out the 30 BR too. Very simple, very popular in Bench
rest competition and incredibly accurate like the 6BR itself and any of its offspring.
also the 30 herret very easy to put together w/o the bolt constrictions of the 7.62 and 308.

 

[dsdmmat]

Not really interested in any of the wildcats as of this moment. I was browsing through GB and saw the 308 Arrow and figured I would read up on it. Post a thread and try to start a conversation about the thought process and mechanical process of wildcatting.

In a bolt gun a wildcatter only has to worry about chamber pressure, twist and OAL (besides intended purpose). When it comes to the semi auto platform they also have to take into account port pressure and timing. I guess a healthy discussion on what goes into the development and calculations for the wild cat cartridge would be interesting for a few of us posters.

So let's say we are building a new round for the world with the intent on shooting a 28 caliber bullet at mid range targets 300-500 yards for groups and hunting wild sheep in Alaska where the farthest shot will be 700 yards. What are the factors that would go into selecting a parent case, the shoulder angle and a platform to shoot it out of?


As for me:
If I only could have one AR platform I doubt it would be the 15 series. I would go with either the AR308 platform or the BN36 platform due to the versatility of the rounds they could handle.

I have a single shot lower from ZEL customs which I may build into one of the PPC cartridge guns just for playing around at the range.

 

[meketrefe]

@dsdmmat
I am going to assume you want a 7mm to be loaded from a small AR15 or mini14 otherwise one has the 7mm-08 that is amazing in terms of ballistics.
So in this situation the main issue is the short max coal imposed by the limitations of the magazine and the width limitations imposed by the limitations
of wider reliable bolts.
With this limitation of real state, if one cannot go longer then one needs to go wider.
In order to get maximum performance one needs to see how to get decent case capacity w/o getting into very complex WSSM cartriges or even more exotic options.
So if one can get a rebated rim case with 308 bolt face type like the 284 and shorten this to be suitable to the bullets needed, then this could be a great option.
A short version of the 308 would also give plenty of capacity. Sort of like a short 7-08 or what it he same a 7mm/BR (BRX family)
Now, if the bolt combo is not found then one will have to look for strong 7.62x39 or 6.8spc bolt alternatives. In the case of the 7.62x39 one could get decent
speeds out of an improved version fo the 7.62x39 with wider shoulder and in 7mm and keep bullets to 130gr-140gr maximum. The 6.8 wil have to rely on extra length fo extra capacity so one will have to consider single stack them and use the 6mm hagar as a potential donor.

I guess the first thing when one considers all alternatives is to decide what bullets one needs and at what speeds and that will determine what type of capacity we need and pressure and this way work by eliminating some of the options by selective process. In terms of the shoulders a 30 degree shoulder should work great with most cases but if more shoulder and capacity is wanted then I would stay away from the wider cases but this can also be resolve for reliable feeding.

The shoulder should be seen not as a critical component for specialty use but more like a convenience component or as a way to squeeze a tad more of juice but not a huge determining factor.
I have been entertaining the idea to create a 7mm version based on the carcano case that will feed single stack from the AR15.

In summary I think the 7mm Gunner I created will fit the bill for the scenario you presented above. With a 20 barrel will deliver 2700fps with 140gr 7mm bullet but if the long range was needed the mags could be gated and whit a longer 22" barrel it would put 162gr match bullets to 2550+fps that will perform well on sheep at long range.

The porting is a simple thing. The caliber and type of fuel determines the pressure at specific points in the bore that should be very similar to other calibers using this same powders and bullets so standard rifle porting will work reliably. One could always introduce a regulated gas block to adjust to the ideal setting but this is not really needed for this type of calibers and powders.

There are many factors to consider, some imposed and some optional:

- Limitation in length imposed by the magazine or action
- Limitation is width imposed by the bolts and/or brass. One might want to avoid very expensive brass even if the bolts are found.
- Capacity needed for the wanted bullet. It is better to start with the bullet and ideal speeds needed and work from there than having to
limit the potential of those bullets by starting too slow and restricting to the case. Everything we consider is to help the bullet get where
it needs to go and impact with authority and decent trajectories. Otherwise it might be wise to come down one or two calibers.
- Availability of components is huge and this is not only for brass but also existing reamers and dies that can be adapted to reduce the
cost of developing and maintaining the wildcat cartridge.
- Cartridges derived from current or previous service brass are attractive due to the availability of brass. Same thing happens with very
popular commercial casings that are plentiful and fairly priced. Same thing with bullets.
- I think in our book the cartridge has to offer something different and unique although I understand some might develop one just for the
challenge and love for the hobby.

In the AR there are some pretty light platforms in standard DPMS/knights lowers and uppers that assure compatibility of parts and end
up being less expensive than the DPMS Gen 2 fiasco.

makes sense?

 

[Uzi]

No thanks, rather just take the readily available 308.

 

[dsdmmat]

@dsdmmat
I am going to assume you want a 7mm to be loaded from a small AR15 or mini14 otherwise one has the 7mm-08 that is amazing in terms of ballistics.
So in this situation the main issue is the short max coal imposed by the limitations of the magazine and the width limitations imposed by the limitations
of wider reliable bolts.
With this limitation of real state, if one cannot go longer then one needs to go wider.
In order to get maximum performance one needs to see how to get decent case capacity w/o getting into very complex WSSM cartriges or even more exotic options.
So if one can get a rebated rim case with 308 bolt face type like the 284 and shorten this to be suitable to the bullets needed, then this could be a great option.
A short version of the 308 would also give plenty of capacity. Sort of like a short 7-08 or what it he same a 7mm/BR (BRX family)
Now, if the bolt combo is not found then one will have to look for strong 7.62x39 or 6.8spc bolt alternatives. In the case of the 7.62x39 one could get decent
speeds out of an improved version fo the 7.62x39 with wider shoulder and in 7mm and keep bullets to 130gr-140gr maximum. The 6.8 wil have to rely on extra length fo extra capacity so one will have to consider single stack them and use the 6mm hagar as a potential donor.

I guess the first thing when one considers all alternatives is to decide what bullets one needs and at what speeds and that will determine what type of capacity we need and pressure and this way work by eliminating some of the options by selective process. In terms of the shoulders a 30 degree shoulder should work great with most cases but if more shoulder and capacity is wanted then I would stay away from the wider cases but this can also be resolve for reliable feeding.

The shoulder should be seen not as a critical component for specialty use but more like a convenience component or as a way to squeeze a tad more of juice but not a huge determining factor.
I have been entertaining the idea to create a 7mm version based on the carcano case that will feed single stack from the AR15.

In summary I think the 7mm Gunner I created will fit the bill for the scenario you presented above. With a 20 barrel will deliver 2700fps with 140gr 7mm bullet but if the long range was needed the mags could be gated and whit a longer 22" barrel it would put 162gr match bullets to 2550+fps that will perform well on sheep at long range.

The porting is a simple thing. The caliber and type of fuel determines the pressure at specific points in the bore that should be very similar to other calibers using this same powders and bullets so standard rifle porting will work reliably. One could always introduce a regulated gas block to adjust to the ideal setting but this is not really needed for this type of calibers and powders.

There are many factors to consider, some imposed and some optional:

- Limitation in length imposed by the magazine or action
- Limitation is width imposed by the bolts and/or brass. One might want to avoid very expensive brass even if the bolts are found.
- Capacity needed for the wanted bullet. It is better to start with the bullet and ideal speeds needed and work from there than having to
limit the potential of those bullets by starting too slow and restricting to the case. Everything we consider is to help the bullet get where
it needs to go and impact with authority and decent trajectories. Otherwise it might be wise to come down one or two calibers.
- Availability of components is huge and this is not only for brass but also existing reamers and dies that can be adapted to reduce the
cost of developing and maintaining the wildcat cartridge.
- Cartridges derived from current or previous service brass are attractive due to the availability of brass. Same thing happens with very
popular commercial casings that are plentiful and fairly priced. Same thing with bullets.
- I think in our book the cartridge has to offer something different and unique although I understand some might develop one just for the
challenge and love for the hobby.

In the AR there are some pretty light platforms in standard DPMS/knights lowers and uppers that assure compatibility of parts and end
up being less expensive than the DPMS Gen 2 fiasco.

makes sense?

Makes perfect sense, I know a lot goes into wildcatting. Which is why I like picking your brain on the topic. I find it a pretty interesting topic that has more twists and curveballs than a political campaign. I followed your 357 gunner development. It is amazing what one can do when they have a purpose in mind.



I completely agree on the Gen II bs that DPMS started, I think they missed the boat when they went that direction with their 308 platform.

 

[Podmonkey]

What case is this based off?

 

[dsdmmat]

What case is this based off?

Looks like it shares the same shell holder/ bolt face as the 7.62x39.

 

[Podmonkey]

Looks like it shares the same shell holder/ bolt face as the 7.62x39.

So essentially a 7.62×39 with less taper then? Not sure I see the point off that. What am I missing?

 

[meketrefe]

less taper and different shape = more capacity.
Modern brass like lapua = more pressure.
Total = increase in speed / performance.

30 caliber is not the ideal for the platform so one needs to consider the return on investment.
The 7.62x39 has plenty of capacity and w/o doing anything to the chamber one can reload using premium 308 bullets
with a 308 resizer button and hybrid chamber and push 130gr premium bullets to 2450-2500fps depending on the barrel.

So not sure if any other variant of the case in 30 caliber is going to make much sense. I mean it is nice but it doesn't pay off IMO.

 

[4excal]

Ahhh, I so love that we can make a thread or post a question to @meketrefe our local, un-local expert..aaaamd get a detailed response! Love ya man!

 

[meketrefe]

Ahhh, I so love that we can make a thread or post a question to @meketrefe our local, un-local expert..aaaamd get a detailed response! Love ya man!

@4excal
I am just sick fo politics!
I love you too baby! lol

 

[ProgSpear]

Q1: Maybe I don't get it, but given the capability of a .308, why would you mess with 7.62 x 39 variants? Just asking, so no flames please.

Q2: The more I see these threads, the more I want to build a .308 (maybe instead of going out and buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, which is the alternative for me. Cash constraints say either/or...) I would prefer to stick with a straight up .308 Win for overall versatility and cost. What's the recommended lower to start with? I know there's a couple different variants (DPMS and some others) but what are the pro's & con's?

 

[Podmonkey]

Q1: Maybe I don't get it, but given the capability of a .308, why would you mess with 7.62 x 39 variants? Just asking, so no flames please.

Q2: The more I see these threads, the more I want to build a .308 (maybe instead of going out and buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, which is the alternative for me. Cash constraints say either/or...) I would prefer to stick with a straight up .308 Win for overall versatility and cost. What's the recommended lower to start with? I know there's a couple different variants (DPMS and some others) but what are the pro's & con's?

Everyone wants AR 10 performance with the weight and handiness of an AR 15 package would be my guess. I agree with Meketrefe that such a combination precludes the use of a .30 cal projectile.

 

[meketrefe]

Q1: Maybe I don't get it, but given the capability of a .308, why would you mess with 7.62 x 39 variants? Just asking, so no flames please.

Q2: The more I see these threads, the more I want to build a .308 (maybe instead of going out and buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, which is the alternative for me. Cash constraints say either/or...) I would prefer to stick with a straight up .308 Win for overall versatility and cost. What's the recommended lower to start with? I know there's a couple different variants (DPMS and some others) but what are the pro's & con's?

Q1: The AR15 is a lighter platform with unprecedented support so people are playing to see what they can fit in the small magazines vs. the 308w and others that do not fit in the AR15 and are heavier and larger. The wilcat above is to run in the smaller AR15 and not in the AR10/Knights/DPMS platform.
There are other 30 calibers wildcats for the AR15. Everyone is trying something new, well at least they think is new but most likely is not new or it is pretty close to something has been done before.


Q2: IMO, before you buy any rifle and round I suggest you take a close look at your needs and also what you like of course. The 308 winchester is pretty easy to defend as an option because being a current service round all over the world, it is plentiful, cost effective and it works really well with bullets from 110gr to 180gr so it can take on many roles.
The ruger precission carbine is not a proven platform yet so I would not spend the money on it. Because it is new they are starting to figure out bugs and the barrels have not been consistent. One barrel can shoot very well and the next very bad. If you want consistent results the best thing is a custom rifle but a good rifle maker or some of the out of the box with good value that can give more consistency than the ruger precission carbine with half of the cost.
I am like that way too, or at least I used to be. Bought a lot of staff out of impulse and coolness factor but w/o thinking about maturity of the platform, how much I needed or how much I even liked it w/o even testing that round first. I was young, wanted the fashion, paid the price.

The 308 upper is always a good option. I would say here you need to invest in a 18" minimum. Anything shorter doesn't make much sense for the average ammunition we find. 20" is the ideal for the AR but for some people is too long. In reality is not too long no matter our feelings and the speed gain is nice. Again nothing below 18" otherwise consider a 6.8spcII in 16" that is more efficient in that size. Actually I like the 19" barrel that it seems perfect with a small brake or just plain target depending on the need to compliance with BS SAFE.

The 308 upper will be always there with you. If you buy a gas block or piston with the cancel option and a side charging you can shoot it pretty much like the ruger or other bolt action if you have someone making a tight SAAMI chamber job with matching bolt. If you reload you can try 110gr varmints bullets for light recoil and with a regulator can shoot pretty mild and then all the way to full power 180gr loads that will make your toupee move.

Other easy alternatives for the AR10 are the 6mmBR, 243 winchester, 260 remington , 6.5x47 lapua, 7mm-08, 338 federal or 358 winchester for big mommas.
All of these are popular siblings that use the same bolt. Even the 284 winchester if you feel more exotic.

The nice thing is once you have one you will want another. The 308w upper should be mandatory in every american home along with the 5.56, 12ga shotgun, a 10/22 and the glock 19. LOL

 

[dsdmmat]

Q1: Maybe I don't get it, but given the capability of a .308, why would you mess with 7.62 x 39 variants? Just asking, so no flames please.

Q2: The more I see these threads, the more I want to build a .308 (maybe instead of going out and buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, which is the alternative for me. Cash constraints say either/or...) I would prefer to stick with a straight up .308 Win for overall versatility and cost. What's the recommended lower to start with? I know there's a couple different variants (DPMS and some others) but what are the pro's & con's?

There are two competing patterns for the 308 AR ( actually three) the Armalite and DPMS ( and DPMS G2) it is important to pick a pattern and stick with it.

There are also different heights of handguard rails.

I have built with DPMS, Go ballistic, Matrix Areospace, Aero, and Lewis tool and Machine lowers, all are DPMS magazine compatable but, the matrix required almost all matrix parts (upper, handguard, upper and lower parts kit).

Go Balistic is the brand I like the most, it accepts all DPMS uppers without gaps. It can be found on gun broker ( from time to time) for around 139 bucks. The Areo M5 pattern is also a good one but you will pay for the name. You are also going to want to buy their upper with it.

 

[meketrefe]

I would ask myself a few honest questions:

A) What is the primary objective.
B) What do I really enjoy and is this upper part of that enjoyment goal or more a tool I need.
C) Ignore the fashions. Brands mean nothing yet a good barrel and chamber job is a must.
D) Less is more sometimes. Don't over do it. Don't over pay. Get into something you can afford that is still
good quality and consider have some good amount of ammo and/or reloading supplies. Having very exclusive platforms
and not having enough ammo is like having a ferrari and no gas to drive it.

I think with the uppers one can have several roles and swap as needed. that is the beauty of the platform.
With the 308w I would not be looking for volume like most of the stuff I do but precision, and then try to hit all sort of targets
as far as the eye or scope can see or the range that day let me due to the maximum distance.
I enjoy taking notes and deriving trajectories and playing with stuff. I think in the end only accuracy is interesting to me
but not everything needs to be super accurate, just accurate enough for the role.
The 308 is a good round to test marksmanship skills including at long ranges. Some modern 155gr-168gr bullets will make it supersonic
all the way to 1000 yards although the effective range is around 800 yards.

Just some thoughts. At least we are talking about something entertaining thanks to dsdmmat and a few others.
I mean, I enjoy the political change and all that but it almost seems that if one wants to talk about rifles, hunting, ballistics, outdoors, etc...
one needs to look for a forum that doesn't have new york on it.

 

[dsdmmat]

I just completed a build with a Green Mountian Barrel 223 Wylde 1-6 twist. I built it only because of the rate of twist. I wanted to try out 90 grain VLDs and figured what the hell, I will build one to do it.

I am in the process of getting everything together for a Remington 700 build in 35 Remington. Why 35 Remington you ask? Because I have a lonely Marlin 336CS in 35 Remington. I realize this will be a 200 or less yard gun. It is being built because I like the cartridge and want to have more things that shoot it.

I am pretty much done with my SD guns and can concentrate on things that make me happy or at least satisfy my curiosity.

Like Mek said it is fun to talk about guns, ballistics, ammo and everything that goes bang.

 

[Podmonkey]

I find the concept of 90gr 223s fascinating, that must be an incredibly slippery bullet! I'd like to here about the paticulars after a range session.

 

[dsdmmat]

I find the concept of 90gr 223s fascinating, that must be an incredibly slippery bullet! I'd like to here about the paticulars after a range session.

I will have to load some up. Tomorrow I am going to run the rifle with 75 and 69 grain factory ammo. I have some 80 (300) and 90 (100) grain bullets and about 1K of 75 grain bullets to load.

 

[meketrefe]

@dsdmmat,
I think you would probably like one of my current projects for the 35 Remington project and whatever else.
This weekend I made a thread adapter to take some of my old calibers from all sort fo barrels and plan to convert them to run in one
universal platform in terms of the shank threads but they will be able to run in several rifles the same barrel.
Imagine a contender system but 1/3 of the cost per caliber and able to run in several bolt action repeaters.

This is the first test I did. The inside threads are M22x1.5 and there is a relief area for the remington remage
and savage small rifle to fit so I can use either system to do the rest of the tenon. I can do a smaller one with
some other barrels. This one is for the R700 with 1.055x16 tpi. I need now to make a recoil lug that I am going
to make integral with a new base sako style. Then I will bed everything with a no stress bedding method.

Perhaps we should make a thread for this.

 

[dsdmmat]

Mek, That looks like way too much fun.

 

[meketrefe]

Mek, That looks like way too much fun.

Yes it should be fun specially because I have two stocks with AR15 magazine bottom metal for the R700 and another with the AI system so I can use
any kind of magazine in any of the calibers I can and it only takes 2 minutes to switch barrels. It sould be accurate too since I trued the action and the
adapter and the tenons I will do the same.
So it is all true and square.

for the 90gr bullets I will be interesting. I think I have a 224 throatier reamer somewhere if needed. I tried to get some of the 105 gr 223 tungsten core
bullets from Liberty but I could not get them and then the tungsten paranoia came about. Those would be cool to try and perfect for that twist.
the ballistic coefficient was like 338 300gr lapua bullet. lol. insane.
I think some folks in NZ make a 100 grainer, I need to check. lol.

 

[dsdmmat]

I took a stony point to the chamber before I put it together got the ogive measurements for the 90,80,75 and 69 grain bullets. I bought 200 pieces of Hornady new brass to load up. It will have to be shot like single shot since they will not fit in a magazine. I think it would be fun to rebarrel my 700 (223) with a 1-6 twist but I think it would be a waste. When I do rebarrel it I will be using a 1-7 or 1-8 barrel. On the other hand it might be worth it do do the 1-6 and just unse anything under 69 grains for the 5.7x28 and Ruger #1

 

[meketrefe]

BTW... for the test I am using one of those factory tupperware stocks that I am going to sacrifice to insert and bed the sako style lug and
base plate. During this process perhaps it would be interesting to see how we can salvage a Tupperware stock and make it actually
usable for an accurate rifle and make this a thread.

I figure if one has a factory stock and wants to improve but is on a working man's budget one could use a few simple DIY fixes
to make it 10 times better.

When I empty the inlet for the epoxy to test the new design recoil lug then I can do the following:
- Stiffen the entire forend stock.
- Install pillar beds on a budget
- Actual bedding process with no stress.
- install an harmonics dampening screw/support
- install a small forward picatinny rail for QD bipod.
- we can do a few extra things I am sure.
- go and shot it.

The worse it can happen if that the POS factory stock doesn't shoot shit. they are garbage anyway.
Hard to say what is an interesting project here with all the politics taking over.

 

[dsdmmat]

I have a couple Tupperware stocks if you want them. One is a 700 long action and the other a 700 short action. I also have one for a Bmag

 

[meketrefe]

What reamer did they sue for the chamber? that has an impact on the chamber. the mason match chamber has extra freebore. the PTG wylde is
also a nice one with a tad less freebore. I wonder how much you get.
yes you will have to single feed for now but can install a VLD magazine for autoloading. If we fabricate one will give you probably up to 2.45 COAL easily.
but you wll need to remove or modify the bolt catch.

 

[dsdmmat]

Not sure what reamer Green Mountain used, The barrel is marked 223 Wylde.

 

[meketrefe]

thanks but I have a box full of them. I have rifles I have never fired waiting for a rebarrel. I used to buy calibers on sale. I will just sell the
barrels and the stocks nobody wants them anyway. I keep them for an emergency or family member or projects like this to try crazy shit.

 

[meketrefe]

Not sure what reamer Green Mountain used, The barrel is marked 223 Wylde.

Probably PTG. They do a good job. Since they retooled the factory their barrels are a great value.
I have used all sort of brands when on sale and realized I can get more done with less money.
The stainless steel have been awesome on the 6mm, 35 and 30 caliber projects.