More real life experiences on handguns

meketrefe · Jan 2, 2019

Where you make contact makes a huge difference.
That is the rule nr. 1 and 1000 times more important than the caliber choices.

So in order to have a very lethal system you need to make sure of these three things:

1-train
2-train
3-train

... and train a bit more just in case.

9mm vs Grizzly.

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
There were some pretty overt insinuations that certain calibers are not ideal for self-defense....go re-read some of the earlier posts I responded to and refresh your memory.

I have no problem with people having a prepared mindset and carrying what they're comfortable with....I've said that numerous times. I'm not in favor of any sort of magazine limits. So long as people are responsible and informed, they can own and carry whatever firearm suits their needs/wants.

I do think its stupid to use police shootings and encounters as a baseline for CCW setup's and tactics. Cops are a whole lot more likely to get in pro-longed shoot-out's with criminals because it's their job to find and remove those people from the streets. Civilians are obligated, at least in this state, to get away from dangerous situations and refrain from violence unless they have no other alternative. So the idea that you, as CCW permit holder, are going to need to shoot more than a few rounds in a realistic self-defense situation is far-fetched. These situations where civilians have to shoot more than 5-6 rounds are more based on fantasy than reality....that doesn't mean they can't happen, but if most people are honest with themselves, the likelihood of such an encounter is very low and they're unlikely to need more than 6 rounds. Again, they can carry as many rounds as they want, but some of these discussions about needing more than 8 rounds, doing reloads, ect. are more based on fantasy than reality for the average citizen.

I've never once told someone else that they shouldn't carry a certain type of firearm or caliber or certain magazine capacity. So I really don't think I'm being aggressive or antagonist towards anyone in that regard.

Also, the 6-shot revolver in your picture is noticeably smaller than the Glock 26. That may be why someone would prefer to carry a revolver instead of a semi-auto pistol. Historically, and even in modern times, low-capacity revolvers have been relied upon as CCW or backup firearms for that very reason.

Is this a personal vendetta with you or are you really telling me that civilians never ever have fired more than 6 rounds in self-defense? There's quite a few instances where they have. Was it far-fetched for them?

I really can't believe that you are arguing this other than a vendetta because what you're saying is utter nonsense.

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Willjr75 said:
Did not the OP post a video?

No one said it's pointless or stupid in the quote that offended you. Comments were made about higher calibers with larger capacity. If you look at my post that turned you all defensive, I said, "For me it would be the highest capacity in a concealable package of a proven caliber. That's the Glock 26 for me. 11 rounds of 9mm in about the same footprint as a 6 shot revolver."

I never once mentioned a full size handgun and I never once mentioned for everyone. I said "for me." I don't understand why that post got your panties in a twist.

I did say however that it isn't a good idea in a later post in reference to the video as evidenced by the video.

And back to your other comments about your feeling the need to not carry in certain situations, that's fine. If it works for you, that's great. But don't insinuate that because it works for you it works for me. It has nothing to do with being paranoid, seeing things that aren't there, or having bad situational awareness. That's ridiculous. Of all the shootings that have taken more than five or six rounds, were those involved paranoid? We're those 2 women in the video paranoid? What if there were two assailants instead of one?

Who wouldn't want to carry a firearm that's the same size as revolver that carries 11 rounds instead of 5 or 6? You maybe? Not me. It's called being prepared and giving yourself the best possible chances.

I guess your argument is also that I shouldn't have a 30 round magazine for home defense either. All I need is a five-round hunting magazine because I'm paranoid right?

And since you're on the internet and claiming that no one needs a certain number for self-defense, does that make you a internet know it all or are you talking from experience?

You're editing your original post w/ additional comments that put words in my mouth.

So because I think a 6-shot revolver is adequate for self-defense, that means I'm in favor of the SAFE Act's magazine limit and that all CCW permit holders should only be allowed to carry a certain # of rounds? Gotta love that internet logic!

Quite frankly, I'd always thought that being a revolver fan would qualify me as a gun aficionado rather than a card-carrying Commie in favor of Cuomo's politics.

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
You're editing you're original post w/ additional comments that put words in my mouth.

So because I think a 6-shot revolver is adequate for self-defense, that means I'm in favor of the SAFE Act's magazine limit and that all CCW permit holders should only be allowed to carry a certain # of rounds? Gotta love that internet logic!

Quite frankly, I'd always thought that being a revolver fan would qualify me as a gun aficionado rather than a card-carrying Commie in favor of Cuomo's politics.

What are you talking about. I'm allowed to add additions to my post to further clarify what's going on. None of which I added says anything about the safe act.

And since you are telling me that I don't need more than six rounds for self-defense as a CCW carrier because I'm paranoid or unaware of my surroundings, does that not apply to self defense in the home too?

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Willjr75 said:
What are you talking about. I'm allowed to add additions to my post to further clarify what's going on. None of which I added says anything about the safe act.

And since you are telling me that I don't need more than six rounds and self-defense as a CCW carrier, does that not apply to self defense in the home too?

Are you really that dull that you can't even follow the logic of your own posts?

You accused me of being in favor of magazine limits (which the SAFE Act recently codified) and you've said, numerous times now, that I am lecturing other people on how many rounds they should carry for self-defense.

I've literally never once in my earlier post presumed to tell others that they should limit the # of rounds they carry for self-defense. Nor have I once stated that certain types of firearms are unnecessary for self-defense.

I think a six-shot revolver chambered in .38 special is perfectly adequate for CCW self-defense....all of my additional comments have been in support of that main point. If you want to carry a higher capacity semi-auto, that's perfectly acceptable in my book. I'm not the one getting my panties "twisted" and I am certainly not lecturing other people on how or what they should CCW with. I think you need to reevaluate your earlier posts before you decide to throw any more critiques my way.

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
Most people on here commenting about CCW preferences are not cops. In fact, most people who CCW will never have to use their weapons in a deadly-force scenario.

Upstate43 said:
If you're a civilian taking more than 2 shots in a self-defense situation, either shit has really hit the fan or you're going to have a lot of explaining to do when the cops show up.

Upstate43 said:
If you're worried about encountering an increased danger during your regular day, then you're either seeing threats where none exist or you need to re-evaluate your habits and life choices....because "upgrading" from a .38 special to a 9mm pistol isn't going to magically make that danger go away.

Upstate43 said:
Civilians are obligated, at least in this state, to get away from dangerous situations and refrain from violence unless they have no other alternative. So the idea that you, as CCW permit holder, are going to need to shoot more than a few rounds in a realistic self-defense situation is far-fetched.

That's all I need to hear from you.

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Willjr75 said:
That's all I need to hear from you.

Yep, it seems your mind was made-up from the get-go.

Statistically it is very unlikely that a citizen is going to get in a prolonged shootout where more than a few rounds are needed.

Does that mean citizens should be prohibited from carrying more than a few rounds?
No

Does that mean that a prolonged shootout scenario is impossible?
No

Did I at any point ever state that there should be magazine limits?
No

Did I at any point ever tell people they should refrain from carry higher-capacity or larger caliber firearms?
No

Unwad your panties and carry what you want to carry. This tangential discussion was started when someone implied that a .38 special wasn't good enough for self-defense.

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
Statistically it is very unlikely that a citizen is going to get in a prolonged shootout where more than a few rounds are needed.

So for those that needed more, did statistics matter to them?

Upstate43 said:
Does that mean citizens should be prohibited from carrying more than a few rounds?
No

Did I ever say that you said that? But you did say that it's far-fetched.

Upstate43 said:
Does that mean such a scenario is impossible?
No

Again you did say it's far-fetched. You also said, " If you're worried about encountering an increased danger during your regular day, then you're either seeing threats where none exist or you need to re-evaluate your habits and life choices...."

Upstate43 said:
Did I at any point ever state that there should be magazine limits?
No

Did I ever said that you did?

Upstate43 said:
Did I at any point ever tell people they should refrain from carry higher-capacity or larger caliber firearms?
No

Did I say that you did? What I did say was that since you think 6 shots is adequate for self defense, then it stands to reason that you also think it's adequate for home defense. Are you telling me that 5 or 6 shots isn't adequate for home defense? Which is it? Six shots is good enough outdoors and 6 shots is also good enough indoors? Or six shots it's good enough outdoors but indoors you need more than 6.

Upstate43 said:
Unwad your panties and carry what you want to carry. This entire discussion was started when someone implied that a .38 special wasn't good enough for self-defense.

Use you own jokes. Don't copy mine.

96coal449 · Jan 2, 2019

2019 and nothins changed around here.

The smack downs continue .......

HighlandLofts · Jan 2, 2019

I hear banjos.

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Willjr75 said:
So for those that needed more, did statistics matter to them?

Did I ever say that you said that? But you did say that it's far-fetched.

Again you did say it's far-fetched. You also said, " If you're worried about encountering an increased danger during your regular day, then you're either seeing threats where none exist or you need to re-evaluate your habits and life choices...."

It is far-fetched. Most people in this country will never encounter a life-or-death scenario involving a firearm, much less one where more than a few rounds will be shot. If you don't want to believe that, fine by me. Despite what the media portrays, gun crime rates have been gradually trending downwards for the past few decades. Go check out the FBI's database if you want to see the numbers behind that.

Willjr75 said:
Did I ever said that you did?

Yes, you did:

Willjr75 said:
I guess your argument is also that I shouldn't have a 30 round magazine for home defense either. All I need is a five-round hunting magazine because I'm paranoid right?

And since you're on the internet and claiming that no one needs a certain number for self-defense, does that make you a internet know it all or are you talking from experience?

Willjr75 said:
Did I say that you did?

Refer to the above quote.

Willjr75 said:
Use you own jokes. Don't copy mine.

It's not a joke, it's a cliche at this point. And you definitely didn't come up with it.

I don't care what you carry and how many rounds you carry....I don't know how much more explicit I can be on that. A six-shot .38 special revolver can work for self-defense; other firearm/caliber combinations can also work. I'm not going any further down this rabbit hole with you.

96coal449 · Jan 2, 2019

HighlandLofts said:
I hear banjos.

Deliverance?

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Look Ed. If you feel 6 is adequate for you, don't tell me that is adequate for me or that it's far-fetched to need more or that I'm paranoid and seeing things that aren't there.

If I run into multiple attackers, 6 shots may not be enough for me. Especially if I miss, they are moving, or I hit non-vital areas and have to shoot again under stress. I'm not Jerry Mirculek.

Then there is also the terrorism factor that I also want to be prepared for. I bet all those people mowed down by trucks or shot up by an AK welding gunman in a bar minding their own business wish they were armed. In that situation 6 might not be enough. Especially if the shooter is behind columns and tables and chairs.

Are those situations far-fetched? It wasn't for the people that were there and it isn't for me. I choose to prepare for that. If you don't, that's fine. But I choose to and a 6 shot 38 Special revolver isn't adequate for me because it's harder to reload, harder to have follow-up shots because the bore axis is higher, there is no recoil spring, and I can't fully engulf the firearm with my left hand in a thumbs forward motion cuz I'll burn it off with the hot gases that escape from the cylinder.

The .38 Special maybe a good bug, but I don't want a bug. I want something of similar size with more capacity.

Now you seem to have a personal vendetta. I don't. I don't care what you think and you shouldn't care what I think. But I have every right to post my opinions that are backed up by experts with experience.

And saying " I guess your argument is also that I shouldn't have a 30 round magazine for home defense either. All I need is a five-round hunting magazine because I'm paranoid right?" isn't saying that you said anything about the safe act. Your comments about not needing for self defense and paranoia is what brought that up and it stands to reason that since I don't need 6 for self-defense I don't need 6 for self defense at home either.

Have a good night.

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Multiple attackers at once?

Terrorism?

Outside of NYC, I just don't know for what part of NY state that would be a major and/or realistic concern during a daily routine. And honestly, NYC isn't even that bad so long as you don't act like a complete fool.

You don't sound like a NYC resident. I'm all in favor of being prepared and aware, but you do sound like a paranoid person looking for a reason to get some trigger time. And I truly hope that you have any reason to do so.

Carry what you want to carry; I've never said otherwise.

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
Multiple attackers at once?

Terrorism?

Outside of NYC, I just don't know for what part of NY state that would be a major and/or realistic concern during a daily routine. And honestly, NYC isn't even that bad so long as you don't act like a complete fool.

You don't sound like a NYC resident. I'm all in favor of being prepared and aware, but you do sound like a paranoid person looking for a reason to get some trigger time. And I truly hope that you have any reason to do so.

Carry what you want to carry; I've never said otherwise.

Goodnight Ed.

HighlandLofts · Jan 2, 2019

A good old fashion duel. I hope nobody has to squeal like a pig.

Upstate43 · Jan 2, 2019

Willjr75 said:
Goodnight Ed.

I would bet dollars to donuts that your online persona has nothing to do with who you are or what you do in real life.

But that's the beauty of living in a free society I suppose....

My name's not Ed by the way.

Marine Cpl · Jan 2, 2019

Upstate43 said:
I would bet dollars to donuts that your online persona has nothing to do with who you are or what you do in real life.

But that's the beauty of living in a free society I suppose....

My name's not Ed by the way.

Sorry. Mistook you for Upstate Ed. Anyway, I don't care what you think about who I really am. I know who I am.

meketrefe · Jan 2, 2019

Why would the US secret service be fine with 5.7FN and 357 SIG pistols, weapon systems and rounds?
I mean, they can have anything right? Are they stupid?

Right Answer: they never miss. One or two in the head for sure.

They are not the only ones using them. speed gets the job done.

They actually use those because of firepower + capacity of these very compact rounds to defeat steel, glass and certain body armor
where other popular choices (40 cal, 45, 9mm, etc..) might fail.

Like in real state... location, location, location.

shots well placed above anything.

meketrefe · Jan 2, 2019

96coal449 said:
2019 and nothins changed around here.

The smack downs continue .......

LOL

meketrefe · Jan 2, 2019

Edwardteach72 said:
I feel like the 5.7 argument should be semi moot since they are not using the same booolets that us minions get to nuy

I know around a dozen folks who carry the FN and ammo is plentiful everywhere. Same as the full power SIG. Brighton PD carry the SIG.
I mean, they do not have ammo everywhere like 9mm, 380 or 22LR but they are at reach for everyone and once you get to the premium defensive ammo there is no difference in cost.

The effectiveness of a weapon is directly proportional to the understanding of the weapon, the bullets and most important, lots of training.

I guess one can miss very fast or slowdown and get the job done. 1st come effectivness, 2nd comes efficiency. Speed can only be gained
but so much training that ones head will spin. Unfortunately most people do not do that, not even regular PD and many rarely fire a gun.
Lots of PD if they want to get really good they either are in SP team like swat or they do it in their own time and dime.

Same with people. Most suck at shooting unless they are doing it all the time like IDPA like several times/week.

Marine Cpl · Jan 3, 2019

Serious question. What does 40 gr 5.7 going at 2034 Feet Per Second get us that 50 gr 5.56mm TSX going at 3275 Feet Per Second doesn't get us?

Black Hills Ammo 5.56x45mm NATO 50 Grain Barnes TSX - MPN: D556N1

FN SS197SR Ammo 5.7x28mm FN 40 Grain Hornady V-MAX Case - MPN: SS197SR

Marine Cpl · Jan 3, 2019

Edwardteach72 said:
The ability to fit in a handgun grip

Yeah but in handguns, it's proven to fail FBI standards at least in gel. You can get a .357 Sig 65 gr Xtreme Defender that goes 2100 fps out of a pistol.

Marine Cpl · Jan 3, 2019

Edwardteach72 said:
Also what barrel length are those numbers from. I'm willing to bet it's the short barrel or even handgun for the 5.7 and I'll say 16" for the 5.56

View attachment 38266

50 gr TSX 2937 Feet Per Second 11.5 inch barrel.

.357 Sig 65 gr+P 2100 fps 4 inch barrel. I can't find a video for that but the 9mm 65 gr goes 1700 fps.

More real life experiences on handguns

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