Mossberg Patriot

[Airborneguy]

I have a few gun bucks sitting around and am considering a Mossberg Patriot in either .30-06 or .308. I like the price point and the fact that it has a magazine.

I do not have a .308 rifle, but I reload .30-06 and love the round so I'm hesitant to get into another caliber "just because". Is there any real reason for me to do so? Is.308 that different?

Any similar, magazine-fed, bolt action rifles I should consider in the $400-450 range?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

It's not like you won't just go out and get another gun anyway. Just get the .308. .308 brass is more plentiful and there are more "cool" guns chambered in this caliber. Guns are good investments anyhow.

 

[Airborneguy]

I have this weird thing about guns sitting around. I end up selling anything I don't use often (that's how I got this money actually). I'm thinking I'll end up not using .308 much because I shoot .30-06 so often.

Plus for whatever reason, at my range I find .30-06 brass almost every time I go. Last week I got 20 more just fired cases. Before rifle season starts I usually find a few hundred.

I'm kinda looking for someone to explain realistically what the difference between them is that would make it worth my time to get all geared up for another caliber right now. If I was considering another semi-auto, I'd 100% jump into .308 right now. But for another bolt, I'm leaning towards sticking with .30-06.

 

[Criticalt]

I bought a Patiot in 308 about 6 months ago.
There are people that will talk your ear off with why the Patriot is such a POS.
However, ive got about 400 rounds through mine and 1 deer I shot at 75 yards or so.
Mine came with a Vortex Crossfire 2 scope, which people will also put down.
However, I sighted my Patriot at 100 yards when I got it and it still shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I have shot a few boxes at 400 yards with decent results from $150 scope. Im not the best shot but at 400 yards it does 6 inch groups, which is within a deers vitals.
A better marksman could do better im sure.
My point is, I paid $420 for a walnut stock 308 with a Vortex scope that killed a deer and is holding true after 400 rounds. For a gun Im using once a year to harvest 1-3 deer, its great. The fit and finish is better than my Rem 700. No sharp parts, no marks, chips or dings.
The 1 thing that vould be better is the bolt. It cycles fine but is a bit loose feeling....about the same as my buddies new Savage XP in 308.

 

[Marine Cpl]

.308 is more versatile. You have low grain varmint rounds up to heavy grain big bore rounds. For someone just getting their first rifle, .308 makes more sense.

You are a different case though since you already have the .30-06 and reloading equipment and the varmint situation covered via .223,

I'd go with the .30-06. The least amount of clutter the better. Don't be a pack rat!

9mm, 12 gauge, .223, 30-06 for the win.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

The first question is what do you plan to do with this gun?

This will help decide what caliber you should get.

If you get a chance calibers when I get a 6.5 creed?

 

[dsdmmat]

The .30-06 can be loaded from 110-240 grain it typically has a 1-10 inch twist barrel where as your bolt action .308s typically have a 1-11 or 1-12 twist.

The .308 is a more efficient cartridge, meaning you use less powder to achieve almost identical ballistics. The .30-06 can still be loaded to achieve superior ballistics but, for all intensive purposes the 308 is right there.

The pros of the .308 vs the .30-06 in your case don't really hold any weight. You already have a 30-06, you already load for it and you don't need to buy anything else for it.

If you really want to get another rifle and don't want to spend any more money buying dies, brass and different powders stick with the .30-06. I load for both and typically only get 116 round per pound when doing the '06 verses 166 rounds per pound when doing the .308s.

When you come up here, we can take my 6.5 CM, 06 and 308 out to the range and spend all day hitting stuff out at 400 yards if you like.

If it were my money I would go a completely different direction and get into a 6mm or 6.5mm round to shoot tiny groups at long distances. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/623485580

 

[Airborneguy]

The first question is what do you plan to do with this gun?

Deer hunting and the range only.

Thing is, I had two .30-06 for awhile. One being my grandfather's 700 from the '70's that I inherited, the other my father's Model 70 ('80's) that he beat up a bit. I shot the Model 70 a lot, but only hunt and occasionally check 0 on the 700. When my brother got out of the Army this summer, my father wanted him to have the Model 70. So I need a "shooter" large caliber rifle to replace it.

Honestly I was pretty much decided upon another .30-06 because of the reloading, but since .308 is such a well-touted round, I figured it was worth considering.

 

[Airborneguy]

The .30-06 can be loaded from 110-240 grain it typically has a 1-10 inch twist barrel where as your bolt action .308s typically have a 1-11 or 1-12 twist.

The .308 is a more efficient cartridge, meaning you use less powder to achieve almost identical ballistics. The .30-06 can still be loaded to achieve superior ballistics but, for all intensive purposes the 308 is right there.

The pros of the .308 vs the .30-06 in your case don't really hold any weight. You already have a 30-06, you already load for it and you don't need to buy anything else for it.

If you really want to get another rifle and don't want to spend any more money buying dies, brass and different powders stick with the .30-06. I load for both and typically only get 116 round per pound when doing the '06 verses 166 rounds per pound when doing the .308s.

When you come up here, we can take my 6.5 CM, 06 and 308 out to the range and spend all day hitting stuff out at 400 yards if you like.

If it were my money I would go a completely different direction and get into a 6mm or 6.5mm round to shoot tiny groups at long distances. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/623485580

I definitely want to shoot with you when I head up to visit my brother. Thing is though, around here I only have options for 100 yard ranges, so there's no point in me spending good money for performance I can't take advantage of anyway.

 

[Airborneguy]

.308 is more versatile. You have low grain varmint rounds up to heavy grain big bore rounds. For someone just getting their first rifle, .308 makes more sense.

You are a different case though since you already have the .30-06 and reloading equipment and the varmint situation covered via .223,

I'd go with the .30-06. The least amount of clutter the better. Don't be a pack rat!

9mm, 12 gauge, .223, 30-06 for the win.

This, and throw in the fact that I have an awesome 7.62x39 rifle that I shoot a lot and I think I hust convinced myself of the answer.

 

[dsdmmat]

I definitely want to shoot with you when I head up to visit my brother. Thing is though, around here I only have options for 100 yard ranges, so there's no point in me spending good money for performance I can't take advantage of anyway.

you could always spend 2.5K and get a Noreen BN-36 in 30-06....

 

[Airborneguy]

Yeah I wish lol

 

[Cleck]

I really considered that Patriot when I was looking for my rifle, I liked the fit and finish a lot more than the Savage I got, but I can't argue w/ price.

My options were 308 or 30-.06, but that was for my first rifle. I doubt if I owned one I would own the other. If I was you, I'd go for the 06 as well, no need for both, but I'll never tell someone to NOT buy a gun. I've got my major needs covered now - 40/223/308. I couldn't imagine needing a similar cartridge to the 308, so it sounds like you've already reasoned yourself into this.

 

[Phauxtoe]

plus you are getting older and 308 is lighter to carry

 

[meketrefe]

The 308 is a more versatile and efficient round. Plentiful too as any service round.
In terms of the platform look at the savage hog hunter in 20". A much better action and very accurate out of the box.
Possibly the best value around $425 or so. Aftermarket support like the 700 is amazing because
of these actions being the most popular around the world.

 

[Airborneguy]

Well called Cabela's about a Savage Axis ($259!) and sure enough I can't buy it without shipping to an FFL here because of my NYC residency. So there goes that sweet deal.

 

[meketrefe]

Well called Cabela's about a Savage Axis ($259!) and sure enough I can't buy it without shipping to an FFL here because of my NYC residency. So there goes that sweet deal.

Again the hog hunter is an amazing value.
Everything is beefed up, wiht iron sights, threads and it also makes an easy scout rifle better than the academy.
With he 20" barrel is very handy and not heavy at all yet consistency is above average for a rifle of this price.
I don't work for savage or anybody else. I worked with a lot rifles, actions and barrels.
Later down the road you can easily upgrade the stock if you want but this will work for most uses.

 

[Robin]

Pretty nice guns but no Mosin's, for sure.
robin

 

[meketrefe]

This is the main reason I like to stay away from the patriot no matter the price.



It doesn't mean it is a horrible rifle but the Rem 700 and savage 10/11 are the most popular
actions on the platen due to the proven robustuness of the receivers under any conditions
and this includes some of the most accurate rifles in competition and also critical duty, I mean
service tested. The mauser is the other one and any derivate like the winchester, CZ and others
are also very popular like the original military counterparts.

In the budget department all stocks in all rifles are garbage including the wood ones. Once you step in the
$600-700 there are some worth a bit more but nothing to through out a party.
In this segment the best value is perhaps the Savage Predator / tactical and also the amazing Bergara B14 based
on the Remington 700.

 

[Airborneguy]

I looked at the hog hunter but it doesn't come in .30-06. Is it much different from the Axis?

 

[vanderblack]

I have always gone for guns that chamber military rounds when possible. Ammo is usually more readily available and as such, you can usually find better prices. I do agree with others, if I already had an 06, I don't know I would spend the money on a .308. Of course, you can always pick one up, see how you like it and either keep it or sell off the 30-06.

 

[meketrefe]

I looked at the hog hunter but it doesn't come in .30-06. Is it much different from the Axis?

It doesn't come in the 30-06 because it will sell really bad. The 308 does virtually everything the 30-06 does so people go with the current service round.
the axis is different action and not very different in price if you go with the accutrigger but they do have more calibers. The axis shares the same barrels
and bolt heads than the savage 10/11 but it is the entry level type of platform although it has some advantages and good accuracy.
the Hog hunters gives some nice mid weight barrel but shorter and sights and the popular action 10/11.
Also you have the savage 11 in the XP models that come with a nikon scope from factory. Those are amazing value too round $425.
I prefer those actions just because of their legendary reputation like the rem700 and all the aftermarket support. They will also hold their value
better over time than other brands.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Why are people saying the .308 is more versatile? What makes is more versatile? If anything I would give the '06 the slight nod in that dept. It's faster and can handle heavier bullets than the .308. They are very similar though. If you already have one no need to change to another. That being said I did just that. I bought a Savage 10 fcp SR ($475 after rebate). It's a good rifle for a storm trooper. It's under their "law enforcement" product line haha. I'm looking to get a henry long ranger in .308 also. I have a Ruger American in '06 for a great price if you make up this was Airborne. I don't need both calibers. The savage is a great range gun. It can get a bit heavy if you drag it into the woods but for short walks to a tree stand it should be no issue. I have to get to the FFL to pick it up. I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots.

SAVAGE 10 FCP-SR 308 WIN WITH THREADED BARREL

 

[Marine Cpl]

Why are people saying the .308 is more versatile? What makes is more versatile? If anything I would give the '06 the slight nod in that dept. It's faster and can handle heavier bullets than the .308.

You are correct. I wasn't aware that the 06 went as light as 110 grains.

 

[meketrefe]

Why are people saying the .308 is more versatile? What makes is more versatile? If anything I would give the '06 the slight nod in that dept. It's faster and can handle heavier bullets than the .308. They are very similar though. If you already have one no need to change to another. That being said I did just that. I bought a Savage 10 fcp SR ($475 after rebate). It's a good rifle for a storm trooper. It's under their "law enforcement" product line haha. I'm looking to get a henry long ranger in .308 also. I have a Ruger American in '06 for a great price if you make up this was Airborne. I don't need both calibers. The savage is a great range gun. It can get a bit heavy if you drag it into the woods but for short walks to a tree stand it should be no issue. I have to get to the FFL to pick it up. I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots.

SAVAGE 10 FCP-SR 308 WIN WITH THREADED BARREL

I said that so let me explain why...
It is more versatile because it is shorter, burns better and with a more efficient ratio.
Shorter also means the option to have lighter and stronger actions.
The 30-06 can produce more energy with the heaviest loads but that comes at a price.
In the end either one can take on the largest game with 180gr bonded bullets that is a reduced and marginal use anyway.
It doesn't mean the 30-06 is not a great round but also hard to justify.

For these and other reasons is why the 7.62x51 (308W) displaced the 30-06 as a service round.

This is no secret.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I said that so let me explain why...
It is more versatile because it is shorter, burns better and with a more efficient ratio.
Shorter also means the option to have lighter and stronger actions.
The 30-06 can produce more energy with the heaviest loads but that comes at a price.
In the end either one can take on the largest game with 180gr bonded bullets that is a reduced and marginal use anyway.
It doesn't mean the 30-06 is not a great round but also hard to justify.

For these and other reasons is why the 7.62x51 (308W) displaced the 30-06 as a service round.

This is no secret.

Will also said it. More efficient yes. More versatile no (in my opinion). The 7.62x51 replaced the '06 for a few reasons. More compact rifles, less brass and powder used, less weight ect. None of that really matters to the average hunter. More energy, faster, ability to handle heavier bullets.. the slight nod goes to the '06. Most seem to think the '06 is better on big critters due to being able to handle 200 gr and 220. I have no idea because I have never shot a large bear or moose. I have heard my entire life that the '06 is the most versatile cartridge for use in North America. Varmint to big bear and moose is what I have always heard from the old timers. I guess if you are factoring in rifle length one could say the .308 s more versatile. I have had both and know they do the same thing to a deer.

 

[meketrefe]

ECU,

If the 30-06 is nice and popular round but lets me explain in detail what I mean with efficiency....

The 30-06 gets 100 to 110fps extra fps with heavy bullets. With many commercial loads even less.
The 30-06 case has 68gr h2o capacity that is 21.4% more than the 308. It is also half inch longer that is why it needs a long action rifle.
The case volume to bore volume ratio (in cubic mm) is of 91.7 vs 75.5 of the 308. (less is better).
This means the 308 case volume will be filled with 75mm of barrel that is 2.9" vs 3.6 inches needed by the 30-06.
What this really means is that the 308 will take better advantage of the typical rifle barrel, lets say between 16" and 26" that is 99% of the
commercial rifles and 100% of the military ones. this ratio is not all but we have to add the well known fact that short burn column
cartridges are more efficient on average.

But what this data really means to the average guy?

It means that if you buy a few commercial loads, including high performance rounds with the same bullets the differences are really small.
Below I attach a table with loads with same bulelts from same makers where you will see the following:

For example a hornady 150gr SST superformance will produce 3000fps with a 308 while the 30-06 will produce 3080fps both from 24" barrels.
This means that the 30-06 will produce a bare 2.6% extra speed. With the 178/180gr superformance the difference is of 1.6% yet the
case capacity is 21.4% larger in the 30-06, and it needs a long action. Only one can decide if a 1-2% increase (3-4% with careful reloading) is justification
enough for the extra weight and expense. For most practical uses in the real world we could consider them almost equals.

I also added the hottest/deadliest loads from buffalo bore to compare. Either one will take anything from a deer to a grizzly or moose at same moderate ranges.



The 30-06 won WW2 but I have no doubt that if they had the 308 back then, they would loved it and won with it too, perhaps easier with
more fire power for the same weight.

When something that gives up so much and trades off so little, I call it efficiency.

Again, many of the same reasons why the 308 displaced the 30-06 as service round and still going strong. This is no secret.

Is there something in that size/case more efficient in both ballistics and terminal properties than the 308W? you bet, the 7mm-08.

But that is probably subject for another discussion.

 

[ECU Pirates]

If I had more time to reload (having a baby and a wife in grad school/working full time takes it all) I would have liked a .260 or 7mm-08 build. Maybe a 6.5 creedmoor. Maybe in a few years! I went with the Savage 10 in .308. I will just have to buy ammo for the time being.

The -06 also won ww1 sir (sort of).

 

[Airborneguy]

In terms of an Army moving millions of tons of rounds, I can see the obvious benefits, along with those related to weapon design. For the average shooter though, most of the benefit of .308 over .30-06 doesn't seem to apply though.

Again, nothing against the round at all and I will eventually have one, but for now it's not practical for me to have both.

 

[Criticalt]

This is the main reason I like to stay away from the patriot no matter the price.

View attachment 9415

It doesn't mean it is a horrible rifle but the Rem 700 and savage 10/11 are the most popular
actions on the platen due to the proven robustuness of the receivers under any conditions
and this includes some of the most accurate rifles in competition and also critical duty, I mean
service tested. The mauser is the other one and any derivate like the winchester, CZ and others
are also very popular like the original military counterparts.

In the budget department all stocks in all rifles are garbage including the wood ones. Once you step in the
$600-700 there are some worth a bit more but nothing to through out a party.
In this segment the best value is perhaps the Savage Predator / tactical and also the amazing Bergara B14 based
on the Remington 700.

Talk to Mossberg about this. Also MANY gunsmiths. Its new so alot of peopke dont get it, but they claim its better and after thousands of guns sold and ised, zero issues.
When I talked to my local gunsmith, with 30 years experience, he rattled off some technical explaination.
Then I talked to Mossberg. There is a reason for the bolt looking that way, weight. Then they use a laminate insert with 2 tabs, one pointed front, one back. Then its sandwiched between the action and the stock to add strength and accuracy. This is done on purpose by a top notch gun manufacturer. They said this has nothing to do with saving money or time. After alot of research and testing they believe it works. Once again, they have had zero issues.
Everyone of course is allwed to have an opinion but look around and see what users of the Patriot are saying, they love the gun and have had no issues.
They also use a crossbar design in their stock to add rigidity for large calibers, look at the reviews for the 375 version, guys love its strength.
Bottom line, this is a new design that Mossberg did not just throw together. They looked at all the current and past platforms, then designed their own.
Time will tell but those pictures you posted were put online by someone that didnt know how the gun was designed.