But the average cop won't care, won't know or just wants to make an arrest and will let the DA worry about it. Again, I'm not against people owning these, I'm just saying do your do diligence so you don't end up a horror story
Mossberg Shockwave
- Thread starter Tinman
- Start date
Granted it isn't a pistol so they also wouldn't be the most reliable source of info
Not trying to start a pissing match just how I see it
No pissing match at all. I just know most cops won't care and don't want to see innocent people jammed up.
As far as them not being the most reliable source....When you register a gun in the safe act - it goes to them. The guy I talked to is VERY pro gun and he is a boss. He pushed the legal counsel for an opinion. So, yes, they would be the most reliable source. Until they tell Troopers (and other cops) not to collar people for possession of them, I would steer clear. Even if your not arrested. I remember a run of AK's a few years back that had some manufacturing screw up and the guns were going full auto. The ATF was making range visits and giving people receipts for their guns and they never got them back.
And I completely understand that and to me it's about being able to articulate that it is a firearm and thus currently not banned in NY, and better hope the officer can articulate why they made the arrest because I sure would be going after the department showing that officer to be a liability (and yes I do support the 5-O, but they are also accountable for arrests)
Side note it's a shame that your (or I'm depending on how you look at it) so far away, the training you offer looks top notch, and would like to check out some of the classes one day
freddy
.308 Win
What specific charge? What law is being violated?
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
They said it is not a pistol. Been done months ago.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
I have two Remington tac 14 back in stock. They arrive today or tomorrow.
freddy
.308 Win
...since it is 26"+, and additionally it is designed to be fired with two hands.
I totally hear you and I would do the same. The question is, "Is the juice worth the squeeze" with this gun? I have a legally reigtered SBS - it has a stock. I don't see the need for owning a shotgun without a stock (my personal preference). Even if I didn't own an SBS, I wouldn't buy one of these. If I did want one, I would ask my self if the hassle was worth owning a shotgun I couldn't even shoulder? Is it worth going through the court process and fees and then the civil suit?
The officer only needs "probable cause" to make the arrest. The gun has a barrel less than 18", he is going to say in section 265 of the NYS Penal Law, it's illegal. Again, assuming it is a cop that is not a gun guy and/or doesn't care about the ATF letter, because he is guided by state law.
Thanks for the compliment! If you ever make it down this way, or have a range up by you that you could host a class, let me know!
You are missing the point. No one is arguing that it is a pistol!!!!! I mention the State Police Pistol Permit Unit, because the boss I spoke to their advises he is the guy who got all the registrations for the Safe Act, is very pro gun and told me himself that he asked the legal counsel for an opinion as to whether or not this type of firearm is legal in NY because "troopers are trying to collar people for it" (I didn't ask if he meant "try" as in inquired if they could? OR if they "HAD") and they hadn't got back to him as of about the beginning of August.
I know the shitty gun laws are emotional for a lot of people. Not trying to cause any but hurt. Trying to look out for people. Especially with a shotgun without a stock, my opinion is it is not worth the hassle. Your mileage may vary.
freddy
.308 Win
You linked to this, correct?...
S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to
the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen
which added this section subject to the registration requirements of
subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly
fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.
Which suggests you define the shockwave as a 'firearm', correct?
We can see the definition of a firearm in NYS includes the 'shotgun' you assert the shockwave to be, yes?
3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.
But, if we read the definition of a 'shotgun' then the shockwave does not meet the criteria because the shockwave does not have a shoulder stock.
12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
That is just my argument. So, please, would you take a moment and explain your argument. I indeed value your thoughts on the matter as a LEO.
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MY ARGUMENT IS ACCORDING TO A SUPERVISOR FROM THE NY STATE POLICE, TROOPERS ARE ALREADY "TRYING TO COLLAR PEOPLE FOR IT" I have been a cop for over 20 years, I have worked for and along side a ton of agencies. I have seen guys do shit that boggled my mind. I would not buy one until they clarify the situation. If you do, you better have a copy of the ATF letter, the NYS Penal law and even then hope you don't run in to the wrong guy/girl. I am saying be careful, until it is clarified by the state police legal counsel. If you do call and speak to someone and they tell you "yes, it is NY legal" Write their name, rank, shield and date/time of the call down - in case you need it later.
freddy
.308 Win
No need to yell, friend. We are on the same side I'd like to think. I appreciate that you are trying to help.
Anyway, LE can collar anyone for anything they feel like, but fruitless arrests that don't stick because no law has been broken do not concern me personally.
We are on the same side for sure. I just hate seeing good people risk a lot - especially for something (in my opinion) as stupid as a shotgun with no stock. If you were fighting for the right to own a short barreled shotgun with a stock, I could understand. I think sometimes people will fight and risk everything, for the sake of fighting.
If you get arrested, your gun seized, spend hours in a cell, get booked, get taken to an arraignment, subsequently transported to the county jail until someone bails you out. Then you have to wait until several court appearances, thousands of dollars and months of your time, not to mention I have seen how cops treat people's guns that get put in to property. Some people getting arrested will cost them their job. That doesn't concern you? Even if it gets dismissed, to me, to go through all of that to own a shotgun without a stock, is stupid. But that's just me.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
Fear mongering.
Cops are not out to get gun owners. As much as the paranoid gun owners think they are.
Gun owners talk about far fetched possibilities. Very few, if any ever happen.
It is an internet phenomenon.
Cops are not out to get gun owners. As much as the paranoid gun owners think they are.
Gun owners talk about far fetched possibilities. Very few, if any ever happen.
It is an internet phenomenon.
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freddy
.308 Win
Fair enough, thank you.
But please: do you personally think that by reading the statutes the law forbids the shockwave?
I wouldn't personally charge someone with it - unless a boss ordered me to do so - I have had bosses over the course of my career order me to make arrests I didn't agree with, so that is not out of the realm of possibility. I will share two other stories with you guys:
1) I was in a gun store in Rockland, back before the Safe act. There was a "pro gun" trooper hanging out in the store and a frequent customer and friend of the owner. He said and I quote " Pre-ban, Post ban, I don't care, I stop you and you have an AR or AK, etc - I'm going to collar you and let the DA worry about it"
2) I worked with a cop one time, we were getting changed and I saw a 30 round AR mag in his locker. I asked when he bought an AR? He asked what I was talking about? I pointed to the magazine (again this was pre safe act) He replied "I took it from someone!" I asked why? " You can't have that! I said really, do you know when it was made? He just looked at me. He didn't know the old law allowed for pre-ban. Why? Because the exemptions - unlike any other law I had seen, were at the end of the chapter - almost hidden. He went on to tell me how the guy he took it from was in the army. So, I asked if he knew about that exemption? I then asked if he thought it was OK to steal US Govt. property?
My point is, until they figure this gun out here in NY and spread the word to law enforcement, it is not worth owning in my opinion. For what? Because it looks cool? The juice isn't worth the squeeze. Not worth getting locked up and "I will sue them later". Thousands of dollars, months in criminal court, missed time from work, maybe losing your job and then years of a civil suit. Maybe your gun will be scratched and dented when you get it back (I have seen it numerous times).
I run in to people on ranges and in classes outside of NY that flat our tell me they break the law when in comes to the safe act. I have looked at people on ranges IN NY and shake my head. I get the laws here suck and are stupid. You have to make an unemotional, rational decision on what chances you think are worth taking for yourself. I just know I wouldn't want to be the test case
freddy
.308 Win
Surely someone (sergeant, DA) keeps record of officers arrest-to-conviction ratio, no? Do you get quarterly reviews of statistics like this?
GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
Seems like a lot of officers are too stupid or lazy to do their jobs and we as lowly peasants pay the price.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That about sums it up. You should see his other thread with the modified bolt catch where he quotes a dictionary definition of semi automatic and says it's legal.
There are some laws and some situations - like this one that are grey areas. As long as they are acting in good faith and they are fairly reasonable in their actions, they are indemnified.
Then there are the angry people and the emotional people. I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cheerios - just trying to look out for fellow pro gun members of the community.
I definitely wouldn't put it that way. AT ALL!!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Be careful. I try that too. I spend a lot of time (too much for my own good) reading laws. They get angry at you and try to reason with a poory written, contradictive law.
Some even go as far as blocking you and calling you names. It's amazing. Even if facts are presented.
Tell me about it! I hosted a Stag Arms NY Compliant AR15 range day a few years ago - Stag brought all their NY Compliant guns, LEO guns for LEOS - including full auto and SBR's and people wanted us to cancel it because we wouldn't let civilians shoot the full auto guns (we weren't sure if it would be legal and aired on the side of caution). We were apparently "creating two types of people" "the citizens and the govt" Stag even gave away a free rifle. I paid for the range and the half the ammo and Stag paid for the rest. People blew up my phone, email and social media. All for trying to get the word out about some guns you can have, while providing LE with an opportunity to handle guns THEY can have.
How would you describe someone who collects a salary for performing a task that they neither understand or care to learn about? I would call them incompetent and if they worked for me would be handed their walking papers.
You were surprised or shocked by this?
By your own testimonial here it seems many have no idea what's legal or not but would arrest you just to play it safe.
Simple thing to do is get off the high horse, believe in the 2A for all, no two tier bullshit.
freddy
.308 Win
Here is the ATF letter on the shockwave.
http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf
Yes, it is only the ATF, not NYS.
http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf
Yes, it is only the ATF, not NYS.