Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Just watched your vid Phaser, geese, if they had that in 6.8 I would be sorely tempted, even with all the admonitions.
Robin
Robin
New NY compliant semi auto rifle option
- Thread starter Podmonkey
- Start date
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I agree the rifles are probably better. Teh sub2000 is another that has been sub-par. A smart design with horrible execution.
They do not mention the SU16 trigger that is total garbage. They can be improved following the hacks from the popular forums and youtube
but that is not for everyone. I actually have couple of this I bought for backpacking / ranch duty.
Also there is no torture test. In a real bad situation with sustained fire how does it handle massive heat. I am worried about the tenon area
that gets quite hot. IMO all they had to do is use an aluminum stub as a receiver and just use the regular AR design but they didn't.
Again, great gun for ranch and basic needs but I don't think it should be one's go-to gun. Better than nothing yes but we have platforms
that have been gone though unimaginable situations and came out chugging like day one.
Having a couple of youtubers running and shooting a few targets weekend warrior style means little.
Give them to a team of Navy seals and have them do an over the beach and other tests like they do with service rifles.
I gave keltec a chance but so far the score in my book is not that great after 5 firearms. 2 = ok (SU16), 3 = garbage.
You see, a lot of companies are doing the spaghetti approach. They bring them to the shows and thrown things to the wall
and see if they stick. The good thing about keltec is the prices seem to be within reach fo the average working man but
at the same time I would wait on any firearm to see if they really stick and pass the rigorous tests of active and critical duty and time.
This has nothing to do with the youtube reveiews and firearms they send for test that might have been baby tendered.
We are talking about mass producing a firearm that anyone can take home give a cleaning oil and then bet ones life on it.
There has to be a battery of tests for critical duty, perhaps some service life and revisions like any product.
Then perhaps when all the bugs are worked out I will look into one if they are able to get into that exclusive segment
a critical duty class of firearms.
You know me. I love firearms and innovation. Does it have a trigger? I already like it. LOL ....
I just don't like the idea to be the test subject and having to pay dollars for it. But if they can prove to us they can make it
happen then I will be buying one.
After many scores but also several fiascos I look at things with skeptical enthusiasm.
They do not mention the SU16 trigger that is total garbage. They can be improved following the hacks from the popular forums and youtube
but that is not for everyone. I actually have couple of this I bought for backpacking / ranch duty.
Also there is no torture test. In a real bad situation with sustained fire how does it handle massive heat. I am worried about the tenon area
that gets quite hot. IMO all they had to do is use an aluminum stub as a receiver and just use the regular AR design but they didn't.
Again, great gun for ranch and basic needs but I don't think it should be one's go-to gun. Better than nothing yes but we have platforms
that have been gone though unimaginable situations and came out chugging like day one.
Having a couple of youtubers running and shooting a few targets weekend warrior style means little.
Give them to a team of Navy seals and have them do an over the beach and other tests like they do with service rifles.
I gave keltec a chance but so far the score in my book is not that great after 5 firearms. 2 = ok (SU16), 3 = garbage.
You see, a lot of companies are doing the spaghetti approach. They bring them to the shows and thrown things to the wall
and see if they stick. The good thing about keltec is the prices seem to be within reach fo the average working man but
at the same time I would wait on any firearm to see if they really stick and pass the rigorous tests of active and critical duty and time.
This has nothing to do with the youtube reveiews and firearms they send for test that might have been baby tendered.
We are talking about mass producing a firearm that anyone can take home give a cleaning oil and then bet ones life on it.
There has to be a battery of tests for critical duty, perhaps some service life and revisions like any product.
Then perhaps when all the bugs are worked out I will look into one if they are able to get into that exclusive segment
a critical duty class of firearms.
You know me. I love firearms and innovation. Does it have a trigger? I already like it. LOL ....
I just don't like the idea to be the test subject and having to pay dollars for it. But if they can prove to us they can make it
happen then I will be buying one.
After many scores but also several fiascos I look at things with skeptical enthusiasm.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
A huge factor for their success is if they open source it.
This means if you come to market and start seeing some traction then make sure you make barrel extensions, bolts and other
parts available to the public and license others to start rebarreling in other calibers. Even license for upgraded groups
and aftermarket parts.
This is what Remington, DPMS and a few others are missing. They think people are looking for yet another great rifle but in reality
this is what consumers are looking for:
A) We do not want products. Yes we want products but most importantly we are buying experiences, good experiences
and that means good support and options.
B) Companies do not own their brands. In today's world companies need to realize that they do not own their brands.
yes they might have patents but they are co-owners of their products with enthusiasts and brand loyalists.
C) Perhaps the most important, listen to your customers. If your customers say they want the barrel extensions
and bolts in different dimensions give them to them. Because if you don't they they will continue to build their
rifles in AR15, AK and other platforms where those are available and every time those opportunities will be lost.
Also implement a process where the brands can take ideas from those communities and work with them to
make them a reality. for this the corporate culture is key.
These realities apply to many other products and markets.
This means if you come to market and start seeing some traction then make sure you make barrel extensions, bolts and other
parts available to the public and license others to start rebarreling in other calibers. Even license for upgraded groups
and aftermarket parts.
This is what Remington, DPMS and a few others are missing. They think people are looking for yet another great rifle but in reality
this is what consumers are looking for:
A) We do not want products. Yes we want products but most importantly we are buying experiences, good experiences
and that means good support and options.
B) Companies do not own their brands. In today's world companies need to realize that they do not own their brands.
yes they might have patents but they are co-owners of their products with enthusiasts and brand loyalists.
C) Perhaps the most important, listen to your customers. If your customers say they want the barrel extensions
and bolts in different dimensions give them to them. Because if you don't they they will continue to build their
rifles in AR15, AK and other platforms where those are available and every time those opportunities will be lost.
Also implement a process where the brands can take ideas from those communities and work with them to
make them a reality. for this the corporate culture is key.
These realities apply to many other products and markets.
I think you're taking things a little out of proportion Meke, I don't expect a Kel Tec to survive the abuse a Seal would likely subject it to. If I were to buy something like this it would be for plinking, and thats a purpose that most Kel Tec rifles could handle just fine. I rely on the Daniel Defense for "serious" work and I wouldn't give that to a Seal either. Not unless they promised to replace it if they broke it!
livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
Uzi
.308 Win
It's kind of like if an old fart hunting rifle raped a cool modern military tactical rifle and the result was a retarded illegitimate born rifle. You can love it for what it is, or just don't get involved with it all.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I don't know what you guys are waiting for. You've been clamoring for a compliant rifle and here's one right out the box.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Ok perhaps the over the beach is too much but also one has firearms for less money that can pass that test.
however I would wait until they can also pass a light and medium duty test. So far many of their firearms have not been
able to hold up even up to that lower standard. So lets see if that changes.
I like my Sub 2000. I have it chambered in 9mm using Glock mags.
It is a fun gun. That is where I leave it. Fun. Accurate, maybe, kinda. Just fun having a rifle built the way this one is. It would never be my go to first gun. I have had a few small issues with it. Nothing major, sometimes, it just doesn't like to fire. With many firearms, the shooter/buyer needs to fully understand what the limitations of a gun are. This is a fantastic gun to go out to the woods and have a fun day shooting. If I had the chance to buy it again, I would.
It is a fun gun. That is where I leave it. Fun. Accurate, maybe, kinda. Just fun having a rifle built the way this one is. It would never be my go to first gun. I have had a few small issues with it. Nothing major, sometimes, it just doesn't like to fire. With many firearms, the shooter/buyer needs to fully understand what the limitations of a gun are. This is a fantastic gun to go out to the woods and have a fun day shooting. If I had the chance to buy it again, I would.
To be fair at less than $1,300 the RBD would be the cheapest semi auto bullpup available would it not? And the only NY legal bullpup at all too?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I think a few million rounds of testing in different conditions even w.o going to the most
extreme would be a good test. Colt, SIG, FN, H&K, Glock, etc.. do those kind of tests.
Perhaps one fo the best test benchmarks for firearms reliability are some of those firearms
rental outfits in FL and around Las Vegas where they fire millions of rounds every year.
This includes regular firing with a decent regimen of preventive maintenance w/o getting
into military type of testing.
I was surprised the H&K piston and regular DI AR15 came on top among some of the
other firearms in the world thought to be the most reliable.
Let me see if I can find the report...
extreme would be a good test. Colt, SIG, FN, H&K, Glock, etc.. do those kind of tests.
Perhaps one fo the best test benchmarks for firearms reliability are some of those firearms
rental outfits in FL and around Las Vegas where they fire millions of rounds every year.
This includes regular firing with a decent regimen of preventive maintenance w/o getting
into military type of testing.
I was surprised the H&K piston and regular DI AR15 came on top among some of the
other firearms in the world thought to be the most reliable.
Let me see if I can find the report...
I'm not suprised really, Stoner's DI system is better than most give it credit for.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
One question a bit unrelated. Why bulpups with a pistol grip would be considered non compliant in NYS
if they didn't have a flash hider or compensator?
The grip does not protrude conspicuously under the action. The grip is under the barrel the action
is in the back.
if they didn't have a flash hider or compensator?
The grip does not protrude conspicuously under the action. The grip is under the barrel the action
is in the back.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
Very interesting. Never even thought of that. But who will sell it/transfer it for you?
The grip is still by itself dangling below the lowest point of the action. You can't make sense of nonsensical legislation really, you know that Meke.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
ok it is under but I don't buy it is under the action because if you draw a vertical line the barrel is there and the barrel is
ahead of the action always. The law says beneath the action not beneath the barrel.
ahead of the action always. The law says beneath the action not beneath the barrel.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Remember under the previous ban when some ARs w/o pinned stocks and muzzle devices were banned? bullpups were not.
SAFE doesn't say that bullpups by name are classified in the so called Assault weapons definition NYS made up. So if we remove the muzzle threads that can be subject in interpretation there is nothing left to be able to classify it as a NY SALTED weapon.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I doubt that bit of legal minutiae will save you in the NY courts. But as always, do as you do.
Actually Stoner "borrowed" the idea from the Swedish Ljungman.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If you are standing, is an ant beneath you that is 2 feet away?
No he didn't. The Ljungman directs the vented gas into a small "cup" in the upper part bolt carrier, the impulse of which drives the bolt and carrier back in a similar manner of a short stroke piston tapping the bolt carrier an allowing inertia to to the rest. The AG 42 and MAS 49 are actually true direct gas impingement systems. Stoner's system is actually quite different, he referred to it as "gas expansion" system. In the AR 15 the tapped gas is directed into the bolt carrier. The resulting pressure pushes the bolt out from the carrier and unlocking the action. As far as I know Stoner's gas system is wholly unique.
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I read a book several ago and it said Stoner took the idea from the Swedes. Just because he made improvements doesn't mean it was an original idea.
The whole concept is different, I don't care what the book says. Stoner may have drawn inspection from the design but the end product is wholly seperate.
Here is the US patent. Look down near the bottom you can see references to Remington. I think that might be where the improvements came in, I wish i could remember what book i remember this from???
Patent US2951424 - Gas operated bolt and carrier system
Patent US2951424 - Gas operated bolt and carrier system
The cited Remington patent seems to describe a similar system to Stoner's. From that I do not see a reference to Sweden.
With patent law there are improvements on top of other improvements. I'm pretty sure (maybe??) it was Remington or maybe not that had copied the original patent. Most modern Gun designs are just a rehash of earlier ideas. I need to see if i still have that book.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the link. You are correct, there are no "new" ideas as the early 50s Stoner like system shows. It was neat to see that actually
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Everyone included Erik Eklund from Ljungman borrowed the ideas from the 1900 Rosiggnol.
Everyone is always "borrowing" something from somebody.
We are humans that is what we do when we learn and then try to innovate right?
The patents say little about where the original idea came from.
Look a the Wright Brothers how they got stiffed in almost everything.
They were creators, not lawyers.
I see that it was chambered in a 6mm cartridge. Hmnnn.