The Eighth amendment talks about excessive bail. For a homeless guy with no income, wouldn't any dollar amount be excessive? Too many variables to be fair across all lines.
Again, the entire system is broken.
New York Jailbreak Law / Bail Reform/ Articles/Stories and Discussions(multi-merged thread)
- Thread starter MothMan
- Start date
The Eighth amendment talks about excessive bail. For a homeless guy with no income, wouldn't any dollar amount be excessive? Too many variables to be fair across all lines.
Again, the entire system is broken.
I totally agree. Maybe if prison wasn't a country club with free education and other activities then people might actually try to stay out of jail. God forbid someone gets "punished" for robbing or assaulting somebody.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Except that isn't equal.
$1M bail might as well be no bail for most people, but you can bet Jeffrey Epstein would be sitting back on pedo island right now if that was his bail.
He would just write the $1M off and not care. It wouldn't be enough to get him back for trial.
Bail in general is a hack for a broken system. We need speedy trials, and people with significant ties to the community who aren't dangerous can be released, and people who aren't can be held.
MothMan
.338 Win Mag
1984, Congress passed the Federal Bail Reform Act, which introduced public safety in the federal bail system and survived a constitutional challenge in United States v. Salerno.7 Since then, 49 states, all except New York, have changed their bail laws to allow judges to consider both risk of failure to appear and public safety in pretrial decisions.
Mort Klein: New York's 'Bail Reform' Makes Jews Unsafe
New York's "bail reform" is giving "get out of jail free" cards to alleged hate crime perpetrators, allowing them to attack others.
www.breitbart.com
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
In a completely shocking turn of events, NY AG Letitia James is saying this new law "should be revisited"
I would think she would be in lock-step with Emperor, but it seems, she recognizes the dangers of this new law
I would think she would be in lock-step with Emperor, but it seems, she recognizes the dangers of this new law
State Attorney General Letitia James says new bail laws should be revisited
State Attorney General Letitia James has now come out as a voice suggesting changes are needed to New York's new bail laws.
www.democratandchronicle.com
There's so many reports of ridiculousness... In Westchester, guys breaks into home, goes to bedroom of teen girl asking for money. Caught and released, immediately breaks window at police station when leaving and re-arrested and held.
There's more and more reports of what an exciting time it is to be a criminal in NY... Act in an environment of IMPUNITY! Get Tickets to a show and debit cards too...
That's right, walk this way folks, and join in on the free kool-aid being given out by your local "tree hugging criminal migrant coddling liberal progressive snowflakes!" Hurry up, you don't wanna miss yours! And for all you law abiding God fearing citizens, just surrender yourself and submit to the wanton undesirable who'll gladly relieve you of your possessions and more!
What drugs did they slip me and when... That I awoke in this "Through the Looking Glass" fucking upside down world!?!?
/end rant...
There's more and more reports of what an exciting time it is to be a criminal in NY... Act in an environment of IMPUNITY! Get Tickets to a show and debit cards too...
That's right, walk this way folks, and join in on the free kool-aid being given out by your local "tree hugging criminal migrant coddling liberal progressive snowflakes!" Hurry up, you don't wanna miss yours! And for all you law abiding God fearing citizens, just surrender yourself and submit to the wanton undesirable who'll gladly relieve you of your possessions and more!
What drugs did they slip me and when... That I awoke in this "Through the Looking Glass" fucking upside down world!?!?
/end rant...
Ties to the community just means the police have a better chance of finding them, it doesn’t mean they’ll show up for court. I work in an area where the overwhelming majority have very strong ties to the community. We’re a bedroom community mostly filled with homeowners. We still have plenty of outstanding Icards (people who are wanted) and warrants (those whole failed to return for court appearances).
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
Kinda like in your worst dreams, isn't it.
Robin
Robin
Sounds good in theory. However the comments from our fellow LEO's about the practical impact of this bill lead me to conclude it should be repealed.
Toecutter
.308 Win
So we should repeal the 6th and 8th ammendment? Again my issue is with the rights of innocent . They are not releasing convicts from prison, these are accused people awaiting trial. I do agree any one accused of a violent crime a judge should have bail discretion , now if they pay the bail are they not still on the street?
I am also willing to bet New York doesnt have a stunning conviction rate. A person sits in jail for a year , they are found innocent , who puts their life back together?
The easy way is to say fuck it lock them all up, it's not me. Thats the way our forefathers put their lives and liberty on the line to give us the freedom we should have today.
I think you would be surprised at how high the conviction rate is. Between the rate of conviction and the plea bargain program, the number is staggering high.
Talking about excessive bail, how much is excessive? In Erie county, there are at least 75 individual cases that are being held on bails of $10 or less. They still can't make that amount.
And to be very serious, we would have need for bail if there weren't so many scum bags committing so many crimes.
I weep for none of them.
As for innocent until proven guilty, that is not in the Constitution. Most are as guilty as they come.
Toecutter
.308 Win
I think your post before said it . Bail for a millionaire is different then a homeless man. Excessive bail would be bail someone cannot possibly afford setting bail purposely so high they couldnt possible afford it is excessive . Its not there to punish or imprison someone, its to make sure they return for trial.
Whats a speedy trial ? A month a year two years? That is a protection for the inncocent. Who gives a shit if a murderer sits in jail for a year or prison for 20. Again I dont agree 100 with this law and I didn't agree with the old system either .It goes to show you when a things swing far in one direction the will swing far in the other. I think we can both agree that the discussion in this forum isnt going to change a thing anyway .
Toecutter
.308 Win
Heres NY speedy trial guidelines;
TIME PERIODS
o In General: With limited statutory exception, the time period within
which the prosecution must be ready for trial is determined by the
highest level offense ever charged against the defendant in the criminal
action (see CPL 30.30 [1] [a], , [c]; Cooper, 98 NY2d 541; People
v Tychanski, 78 NY2d 909 [1991]).
Felony: When the highest level offense ever charged is a felony,
the prosecution must establish its readiness within six months
(which is not necessarily 180 days) of the commencement of the
criminal action (see e.g. People v Cox, 161 AD3d 1100, 1100 [2d
Dept 2018]).
“A” misdemeanor: When it is an “A” misdemeanor, the
prosecution must demonstrate that it is ready within 90 days.
“B” Misdemeanor: With respect to criminal prosecutions in
which the highest offense ever charged is a “B” misdemeanor,
the prosecution must establish its readiness within 60 days.
TIME PERIODS
o In General: With limited statutory exception, the time period within
which the prosecution must be ready for trial is determined by the
highest level offense ever charged against the defendant in the criminal
action (see CPL 30.30 [1] [a], , [c]; Cooper, 98 NY2d 541; People
v Tychanski, 78 NY2d 909 [1991]).
Felony: When the highest level offense ever charged is a felony,
the prosecution must establish its readiness within six months
(which is not necessarily 180 days) of the commencement of the
criminal action (see e.g. People v Cox, 161 AD3d 1100, 1100 [2d
Dept 2018]).
“A” misdemeanor: When it is an “A” misdemeanor, the
prosecution must demonstrate that it is ready within 90 days.
“B” Misdemeanor: With respect to criminal prosecutions in
which the highest offense ever charged is a “B” misdemeanor,
the prosecution must establish its readiness within 60 days.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
The judge should have discretion. If that is being abused by a judge, there should be a process by which he/she can be removed from the bench. This new one size fits all get out of jail free crap is just that, crap. Central planning at its worst.
Robin
Robin
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
New York GOP Chairman Nick Langworthy calls on Gov. Cuomo and legislature to remain in Albany until they reverse the bail reform policies.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
The accused is not a "murderer" until he either pleads out or is convicted.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Nah, most judges (especially in NY) are leftists that can't be trusted with discretion.
The law should be clear, fair, and deterministic.
The outcome of a legal proceeding should not depend on whether you get a "nice" judge or a "mean" judge.
It shouldn't depend on whether you have a public defender or a million dollar lawyer either.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
When people are corrupt and unethical it doesn't matter what system you have, but public officials in every branch should be answerable to the people and community closest to them, the furthest thing from central planning possible.
Robin
Robin
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
well, it seems that common sense **MAYBE** returning to the legislature, I think in the next couple of weeks parts of this law are going to b "revised"
The more violent criminals will have to come up with Bail or stay in jail ..... maybe
The more violent criminals will have to come up with Bail or stay in jail ..... maybe
Toecutter
.308 Win
Either way how you feel about this law I advise all to read the law for themselves and not just believe hype posted on the internet.
The right will try to manipulate you just like the left , I dont trust either of them. My trade is not law and I find it difficult to read and understand legal documents at times too.
Personally I discuss and challenge things to learn more about them, I know my opionons will not change a thing, I very well could be wrong too.
The right will try to manipulate you just like the left , I dont trust either of them. My trade is not law and I find it difficult to read and understand legal documents at times too.
Personally I discuss and challenge things to learn more about them, I know my opionons will not change a thing, I very well could be wrong too.
Bustedknees
.308 Win
I hope this law stays right in place the way it is now till the election is over.. in the mean time take more responsibility for your own safety and watch this blow up in Cuomo's face..
I seriously wonder if you were the victim of one of these crimes.
Man rapes a family member, gets ROR'ed, couple days later he shows back up at the scene of the rape to look for evidence and question the victim. The rape victims information gets put out to the public. Rapist can come back as often as he and his attorney deem necessary.
But, fuck it, he might be innocent. Screw the victim of this rape. Rapist needs to be protected!
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
But what if he IS innocent?
I'm not willing to take that chance. I am not talking about the petty crimes. Did you see the list of crims that will be getting out with no bail?
Accused of rape and manslaughter are not simple things!!
Innocent until proven guilty is a concept relevant to those on the outside looking in. It is important as the basis of a free society to ensure that no government entity can impose force upon a citizen without due process, but don't fall for the false narrative that one is actually innocent until the fact is proven in court.
Understand what I mean here. One is GUILTY the minute the commit the crime. To certain actors within the incident: the victim, witnesses, responding officers, etc, the perp has been properly identified immediately and to them, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal concept deserving respect, but for the instance at hand, no longer a valid discussion point.
I'm talking philosophy vs application here. It's a deep conversation but one that intelligent cops (and other members of the judicial system) face daily but which the average citizen doesn't consider until they are either a juror or a victim of a crime. Until then, "innocent until proven guilty" is such as rock solid part of our system of laws that it is sometimes hard to conceptualize that one becomes guilty in reality when the crime is committed.
Understand what I mean here. One is GUILTY the minute the commit the crime. To certain actors within the incident: the victim, witnesses, responding officers, etc, the perp has been properly identified immediately and to them, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal concept deserving respect, but for the instance at hand, no longer a valid discussion point.
I'm talking philosophy vs application here. It's a deep conversation but one that intelligent cops (and other members of the judicial system) face daily but which the average citizen doesn't consider until they are either a juror or a victim of a crime. Until then, "innocent until proven guilty" is such as rock solid part of our system of laws that it is sometimes hard to conceptualize that one becomes guilty in reality when the crime is committed.
As usual, you said it better than I did.
Members of law enforcement are not smarter nor than they(we) wiser than the average person, we just see incidents and deal with the lowlifes, scum and crims that are out to mame and cause havoc upon good people each and every day.
I have a really good idea what these people are about. Innocent until proven guilty is really overrated.
‘Cause you’re a rookie! 
pjzwtl
.308 Win
I’m still amazed so many are still buying the narrative that this law is all about bail Reform when it’s got much more insidious crap buried inside it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
But what if you are the unjustly accused ?
Just fuck you because the crime you were falsely accused of is so heinous ?
If it was my family member, I would encourage them to arm themselves and take responsibility for their own defense, because obviously the state won't do it.
The rapist doesn't need to be protected, in a good world he would be shot dead in the attempt by his intended victim.
His *rights* need to be protected, because they are also my rights and if he doesn't get them then none of us do.
Toecutter
.308 Win
Ive never been a victim of any crime, I have been falsely arrested, to me wasnt a big deal I was released went to court and dismissed . I would rather deal with defending myself against a criminal any day over an out of control government .
If we are allowed to defend ourselves we could save tax payers alot of time and money.
If you want a rapist off the street bring him to trial faster. This law may help with that. I still havent seen any hard facts about the law . Alot of opinions . From what I understand if rape is a violent crime the judge will still have bail discretion.
How would a rape victim be any safer if he had posted bail? Maybe electronic monitoring can be used along with a fob the victim would carry . Accused gets within x miles the police are notified.
Ive lived long enough to know that nothing is as bad as people make it out to be. A few years back the city was gonna fall into chaos due to police not stop and frisking people.