Ny commies have now told you how you can heat your home

[SonOfSun]

Just curious what’s the cost to install and run it? The anwser to this seems a bit elusive. I can find a lot of stuff that says your energy needs will increase to this but they never say how much it actually saved or the reduction in natural gas use.
Does he like it? Has it been reliable? How difficult was it to install? I’m not a fan but I do t have all the information. Also what area of the country does your dad live in?

He lives in "Rural" Niagara county. Propane, no natural gas available. It's been a lot cheaper for him to run than the boiler (he has both a propane boiler and the heat pump we installed 2 years ago). Can't say how exactly much money he has saved as I don't look at his bills, but I asked him what he thought of it and he said it's a lot cheaper to run.

His 18 year old AC unit gave up the ghost, so he replaced it with a heat pump that does both heating and cooling. Install was pretty simple. Just an air handler below the coil. He did HVAC work before he retired, I was more there to do the heavy lifting, he did all the more technical stuff like setting the controls etc.

He hasn't had any problems with it, but then again it's 2 years old so it's too soon to tell on long term reliability.

He kept the propane boiler as a backup heat source in case the heat pump ever had an issue. As far as keeping the house warm goes I've never noticed it being cold inside and he's never complained about it to me.

Cost for the heat pump unit direct from a supply house was about $6000. The extras (airhandler and coil) was about $1500. Plus maybe another $150 in ducting and related supplies.

 

[HIghlander]

When are they going to figure out that the distribution networks to the cities and neighborhoods are dated, antique and not big enough to handle the increased load. There are a lot of houses out there with 100 amp and 150 amp service. 200 amp service is on a nominal new build home with AC and a gad furnace. Are we looking at 400 amp for electric heat, AC, car charger, stove and water heater? The grid has been stressed for years. How about farms and people with out buildings? Natural gas generators?

Glass , Metal, Plastics,, in other words, just about everything needs gas to make.

 

[ManualF150]

I would switch if there was a way to get personal nuclear generation to each house to provide 400 amps. This way each house was off grid.

I wouldn't care if the generation device needed to be replaced after 30 years or something like that. Twice or three times in a lifetime, I can deal wit that.

 

[Hochulsucks1234]

Wrong. I know for a fact there are heat pumps that work down to 5F at 100% of rated efficiency.hone. do I know? I helped my dad install one in his home.

LGRED Heat Technology - LG Air Conditioning Technologies

lghvac.com

100% efficiency I question. Nonetheless, at what energy cost? If heat pumps are "A/Cs in reverse" then they require a bunch of electricity to run. If its 5 degrees out, will they run non-stop? What is the actual output air temp from these? If they are say 90 degrees, thats lower than the average forced air gas/oil unit. All I know is, when I run just a couple A/C units in the summer I see my power bill rise dramatically, and they dont run non-stop. What are we talking for monthly power bills with these heat pumps? $400? More? Less?

 

[pshift]

Gimmee $30K to convert. I'll do it! Just like your ghost-gun buybacks. I have a friend also who wants to replace their old diesel-fired and coal stoked units as well.

 

[ManualF150]

100% efficiency I question. Nonetheless, at what energy cost? If heat pumps are "A/Cs in reverse" then they require a bunch of electricity to run. If its 5 degrees out, will they run non-stop? What is the actual output air temp from these? If they are say 90 degrees, thats lower than the average forced air gas/oil unit. All I know is, when I run just a couple A/C units in the summer I see my power bill rise dramatically, and they dont run non-stop. What are we talking for monthly power bills with these heat pumps? $400? More? Less?

I was doing a little more research and most will only run down to 35F, then the supplemental heater unit needs to be turned on. Which from what I gather, the largest I've seen is 25kw. So that would equate to 85k BTU. So you'd need at least 30kw to get around 100k BTUs.

They are out of their minds.

 

[2WheelGnnr]

I went from Burning wood to Wood Pellets....MAN its nice..heats hole place and got it at TSC and intalled myself and its the nuts......I did one to two years of propane and then went to wood before I Lost my shirt.......its way too expensive...and i didnt mind the wood cutting and splitting ---at first!! but now the wood pellets are the best....

I hope not to need too much heat in S.C. someday.

 

[Saltwater60]

This decree goes much farther than just fucking us over heating our homes. This also includes transportation. By their own admission only .5% of the 10 million registered light vehicles in NY are zero emission. By 2030 that number must be 30%. 3 million cars just in NY in 7 years. Yeah ok, where are they going to come from? 2030 is also the year that its electric only, no more ICE light vehicles new sales, as well as 40% of medium and heavy trucks be non emission.
Then there is this gem" substantial portion of personal transportation in urbanized areas would be required to shift to public transportation and other low-carbon modes."
Whatever they are smoking I want some.

Here’s what I don’t get. I want a medium sized truck that’s ICE and I’ll likely be buying one around 2030 so who decides if I’m the 40% that has to be an electric vehicle sold to me or if I can buy an ICE vehicle at that time??

 

[Cavalry]

Here’s what I don’t get. I want a medium sized truck that’s ICE and I’ll likely be buying one around 2030 so who decides if I’m the 40% that has to be an electric vehicle sold to me or if I can buy an ICE vehicle at that time??

Its magic.
Or buy your vehicle in a state with no sales tax and register it there. Transfer the vehicle to NY and pay no tax since its already yours. Its win-win.

 

[SonOfSun]

100% efficiency I question. Nonetheless, at what energy cost? If heat pumps are "A/Cs in reverse" then they require a bunch of electricity to run. If its 5 degrees out, will they run non-stop? What is the actual output air temp from these? If they are say 90 degrees, thats lower than the average forced air gas/oil unit. All I know is, when I run just a couple A/C units in the summer I see my power bill rise dramatically, and they dont run non-stop. What are we talking for monthly power bills with these heat pumps? $400? More? Less?

100 % of rated efficiency, not 100% efficiency. IE. it doesn't use more power at 10F than at 30F.

His unit is rated at 11 HSPF (thin like seer rating for A/C).

Here is the LG RED spec sheet: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/LG-LMU601HV-Reference-Guide.pdf

I know the unit he has is considered ultra efficient.

HSPF Rating Explained: What is a Good HSPF Rating?

Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is used for measuring the heating efficiency of heat pumps. Learn what a good HSPF rating is for your HVAC system.

jacobsheating.com

 

[SonOfSun]

I was doing a little more research and most will only run down to 35F, then the supplemental heater unit needs to be turned on. Which from what I gather, the largest I've seen is 25kw. So that would equate to 85k BTU. So you'd need at least 30kw to get around 100k BTUs.

They are out of their minds.

Cold weather climate ones work at 100% of rated efficacy down to 5F, and keep working until about -1F to -15F. Still doesn't cover super super cold days, but they don't stop at 35F if you buy the right model.

 

[JRtraderny]

The supply chain of the entire planet can not manufacture the distribution, transmission, and generation equipment needed to increase New York State's infrastructure to meet the electrical vehicle and home heating demands / schedule mandated by these clueless clowns.

Nor can the average consumer afford it .

 

[Saltwater60]

He lives in "Rural" Niagara county. Propane, no natural gas available. It's been a lot cheaper for him to run than the boiler (he has both a propane boiler and the heat pump we installed 2 years ago). Can't say how exactly much money he has saved as I don't look at his bills, but I asked him what he thought of it and he said it's a lot cheaper to run.

His 18 year old AC unit gave up the ghost, so he replaced it with a heat pump that does both heating and cooling. Install was pretty simple. Just an air handler below the coil. He did HVAC work before he retired, I was more there to do the heavy lifting, he did all the more technical stuff like setting the controls etc.

He hasn't had any problems with it, but then again it's 2 years old so it's too soon to tell on long term reliability.

He kept the propane boiler as a backup heat source in case the heat pump ever had an issue. As far as keeping the house warm goes I've never noticed it being cold inside and he's never complained about it to me.

Cost for the heat pump unit direct from a supply house was about $6000. The extras (airhandler and coil) was about $1500. Plus maybe another $150 in ducting and related supplies.

Thanks for the breakdown. Hard to compare cost because propane is much more expensive than natural gas.

 

[Grimscale]

When the REAL problem was the $30 flame sensor total bill from me. $150.

I'm going through this kind of thing right now.
Initially it was that the furnace wouldn't fire. got a tech out who cleaned everything including the flame sensor (said it had a lot of carbon), and replaced the igniter.
New igniter shorted out within two days.
He came back out, put in a new igniter and gas valve (said the old one is probably bad due to using LP).
Now, furnace would fire once just fine. I can run the house temp from 65 to 70 with no problems at all. Second time the flame would fire for 5 seconds then shut off. Not til the whole thing cools off completely would it fire again for more than 5 seconds.
Tech said the control board is bad.

So far:
$321 - furnace cleaning and igniter replacement
$814 - gas valve replacement (second igniter replacement was "free")

New estimate:
$650 - Control board replacement. (this is down from $900 because they are graciously comping me $250 to replace the igniter again with an OEM one...I guess they put a generic one in?)

We are running on two oil space heaters.

 

[Saltwater60]

Its magic.
Or buy your vehicle in a state with no sales tax and register it there. Transfer the vehicle to NY and pay no tax since its already yours. Its win-win.

You’re aware you pay tax when registering in NYS if bought outside of NYS. As far as I know there is no way around this but I’m not expert in this. This is NYS and they wouldn’t make it that easy.

Sales Tax Information | NY DMV

dmv.ny.gov

 

[spat]

The same way your A/C blows out cold air when it's 80+ both in and outside your car.

20F is 267 degrees C above absolute zero. There is a lot of energy there.

But absolute zero is not what counts here.

It's the boiling point of the refrigerant in use in your heat pump.

When your heat pump has to drop the pressure inside your evaporator way below ambient to get it to boil you run into problems with it just not moving enough mass to move enough heat to make a difference.

They also become progressively less efficient as the pressure ratio between the condenser and the evaporator increases (which happens when the temp gradient you are pumping against gets steeper).


It's pretty easy to pump across a 30 degree gradient when you're trying to cool the interior of 70 degrees by dumping the excess heat into a 100 exterior.

But trying to heat the interior to 70 degrees and you want to get the heat from a 20 degree exterior it is much harder.

 

[Saltwater60]

I'm going through this kind of thing right now.
Initially it was that the furnace wouldn't fire. got a tech out who cleaned everything including the flame sensor (said it had a lot of carbon), and replaced the igniter.
New igniter shorted out within two days.
He came back out, put in a new igniter and gas valve (said the old one is probably bad due to using LP).
Now, furnace would fire once just fine. I can run the house temp from 65 to 70 with no problems at all. Second time the flame would fire for 5 seconds then shut off. Not til the whole thing cools off completely would it fire again for more than 5 seconds.
Tech said the control board is bad.

So far:
$321 - furnace cleaning and igniter replacement
$814 - gas valve replacement (second igniter replacement was "free")

New estimate:
$650 - Control board replacement. (this is down from $900 because they are graciously comping me $250 to replace the igniter again with an OEM one...I guess they put a generic one in?)

We are running on two oil space heaters.

Your tech is a moron. Ask for a supervisor out there becuase this seems ridiculous.
This happened to me and we couldn’t figure out the issue until we pulled the furnace for a replacement. The last people had a dog and all the dog hair got sucked into the bottom of the furnace and plugged up the cooling fins on the bottom. It kept reading an overheating/short out issue. I feel if all I had done was clean the fins on the bottom it would have ran again. Might want to take a look and see if it’s something similar.

 

[Saltwater60]

But absolute zero is not what counts here.

It's the boiling point of the refrigerant in use in your heat pump.

When your heat pump has to drop the pressure inside your evaporator way below ambient to get it to boil you run into problems with it just not moving enough mass to move enough heat to make a difference.

They also become progressively less efficient as the pressure ratio between the condenser and the evaporator increases (which happens when the temp gradient you are pumping against gets steeper).


It's pretty easy to pump across a 30 degree gradient when you're trying to cool the interior of 70 degrees by dumping the excess heat into a 100 exterior.

But trying to heat the interior to 70 degrees and you want to get the heat from a 20 degree exterior it is much harder.

Makes sense. I can’t wait to hear all the problems this new adventure provides us. I’m sure it will not be a smooth transition because it’s the government.

 

[spat]

This will end well .. all the mandatory EV auto and now Heat Pumps ..

Plug EV Car in to charge .. .. house heat goes out .. LOL ..

With the current electric grid, the lights in the whole neighborhood will go out.

 

[Defilade]

All for the climate change fraud! Feathers shall make good tinder for the tar to burn.

 

[SonOfSun]

But absolute zero is not what counts here.

It's the boiling point of the refrigerant in use in your heat pump.

When your heat pump has to drop the pressure inside your evaporator way below ambient to get it to boil you run into problems with it just not moving enough mass to move enough heat to make a difference.

They also become progressively less efficient as the pressure ratio between the condenser and the evaporator increases (which happens when the temp gradient you are pumping against gets steeper).


It's pretty easy to pump across a 30 degree gradient when you're trying to cool the interior of 70 degrees by dumping the excess heat into a 100 exterior.

But trying to heat the interior to 70 degrees and you want to get the heat from a 20 degree exterior it is much harder.

You're absolutely right on the above. I wasn't trying to say it was easier, more that it's possible - that there is actually a lot of energy in air that is 20F.

Newer model heat pumps are capable of working in lower temperatures at 100% of rated efficiency (see my above posts). I'm not advocating for mass adoption, much less forced adoption, however these units do in fact exist. When people say they don't categorically work below 35F, it's incorrect, some of them do work well below that temperature. I felt it needed to be pointed out, not to be a dick, more that new HVAC technology changes fast and what was true 5 years ago on that edge of things may not be true today and unless you keep up on this stuff you probably just aren't aware of it.

Side item, 410A is being phased out in 2025. R-454B will likely replace it in heat pump units. R-454B operates at similar pressures to 410A which will allow manufacturers to build equipment using parameters that are very close to that of existing equipment that uses R-410a so it should be easier for manufactures to transition and retool. R-454B has much improved heating efficiency while having similar cooling efficiency, so heat pumps using it will be cheaper to run.

 

[GOPerfect]

Heat pumps do not operate as efficiently when temperatures drop to between 25 and 40 degrees Fahrenheit for most systems. A heat pump works best when the temperature is above 40. Once outdoor temperatures drop to 40 degrees, heat pumps start losing efficiency, and they consume more energy to do their jobs.

 

[Cavalry]

Side item, 410A is being phased out in 2025.

My buddy has a HVAC business. I few years ago I started recovering R22 out of junkers before the scrap guy got them. I didnt screw around with small systems, mostly RTU's to make it worth the time to hook things up. He thought I was crazy right up until last spring when we sold the first of many 30lb'r. I guess I will have to start over now.

 

[Acer-m14]

 

[holdover]

This is what authoritarian government looks like, This is why people risked their lives to come here.

 

[Jmac00]

When are they going to figure out that the distribution networks to the cities and neighborhoods are dated, antique and not big enough to handle the increased load. There are a lot of houses out there with 100 amp and 150 amp service. 200 amp service is on a nominal new build home with AC and a gad furnace. Are we looking at 400 amp for electric heat, AC, car charger, stove and water heater? The grid has been stressed for years. How about farms and people with out buildings? Natural gas generators?

Can't wait to see what kinds of industries get shut down, ones that rely on natural gas as part of their processes.

my bet is, this only affects residential stuff, industry could never switch to electric.

Corning Glass would be out of business within hours, Steel Heat Treatment facilities would be OOB too. Casino's would be OOB. They run there entire gaming floors, kitchens, hotels all off mega-boilers.

 

[spat]

my bet is, this only affects residential stuff, industry could never switch to electric.

Corning Glass would be out of business within hours, Steel Heat Treatment facilities would be OOB too. Casino's would be OOB. They run there entire gaming floors, kitchens, hotels all off mega-boilers.

How about NYS converts all their stuff first, before they try to force the citizens into it.

You know, prisons, city halls, governors mansion, all that crap.

Convert that all to electric and once you figure that out you can let us know how it goes and try to talk everyone else into it.

 

[Deplorable Me]

my bet is, this only affects residential stuff, industry could never switch to electric.

Corning Glass would be out of business within hours, Steel Heat Treatment facilities would be OOB too. Casino's would be OOB. They run there entire gaming floors, kitchens, hotels all off mega-boilers.

You assume government makes intelligent decisions?

---

 

[Jmac00]

You assume government makes intelligent decisions?

---

my bad

 

[Saltwater60]

How about NYS converts all their stuff first, before they try to force the citizens into it.

You know, prisons, city halls, governors mansion, all that crap.

Convert that all to electric and once you figure that out you can let us know how it goes and try to talk everyone else into it.

Hochul needs a battery powered helicopter before I buy a battery powered car.