NY concealed carry questions

[Egret-II]

Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this. So if it's in the wrong place a moderator can move it.
Anyway, these are my concealed carry permit questions.

I just got my NY concealed carry permit last week. It has a "target" restriction on it.
1st. Can I carry in NY (othe than the communist country of NYC of course) without getting in trouble if I get stopped by the Gest.... police? I mean, the permit only says "target" on it. Does it mean I can go to target, the store? Lol. Seriously tho. There are a few shooting ranges around where I live, and I bet there are tons of shooting ranges across NYS. So, if i get stopped, can I just say "I'm going to the shooting range"?

2nd. I've also applied for my non resident Pennsylvania permit immediately after I got my NY permit. I visit PA every month, as I own properties there, and most of my family also live there. Once I get my PA permit. Can I carry from NY to PA and vice versa, without any worries? Or buy ammo, or guns in PA leave them there. Then use an amendment to add the pistols to my NY permit?

And last but not least. What is the point (in NY) to carry a gun for self defense if you have to retreat if someone is attacking you? For example. A thug comes to you with a knife. If you just pull out your gun and shoot him (self defense). You go to jail, because you had the chance to run away since a knife wont kill you at a distance. It doesnt matter if the thug was a career criminal. Even if the thug has a GUN I think you have to, at least, try to run away... look what happened in the case of Kyle Rittenhouse. If that would have been in NY. he would have been in Jail!!
That's all... for now.

 

[cgrutt]

Not sure if this is legit or not but given benefit of doubt here's my two cents. Not a lawyer so take it for what its worth.

Target is an administrative restriction carries no force of law (i.e. you cannot be charged with a crime) but licensing officer can revoke your permit if caught carrying outside restrictions. Don't believe you can purchase handgun in PA with PA non-resident permit it needs to be done through procedure for whatever NY county you permit is on. Suggest reading or taking class on Art. 35 for Use of Force. Good luck.

 

[GTN]

I think with the “target” restriction you have to have it in a box/range bag unloaded while transporting.

EDIT: I stand corrected. I’m wrong on this

 

[Egret-II]

Not sure if this is legit or not but given benefit of doubt here's my two cents. Not a lawyer so take it for what its worth.

Target is an administrative restriction carries no force of law (i.e. you cannot be charged with a crime) but licensing officer can revoke your permit if caught carrying outside restrictions. Don't believe you can purchase handgun in PA with PA non-resident permit it needs to be done through procedure for whatever NY county you permit is on. Suggest reading or taking class on Art. 35 for Use of Force. Good luck.

Thank you for your reply.
But, the thing is. My permit is from Worstchester county. After all the hoops I had to jump through to get my permit. I dont want it to be revoked. That's why I'm trying to be sure about this. These "administrative restrictions" aren't clear enough for me. Let me give you an example. I also own a ruger 10/22. Sometimes I want to go to the range when I come from work. I put my rifle in my car. But I dont want to go straight to the range. Sometimes I go to the supermarket. Or go to a restaurant to get something to eat. Or pick up my girlfriend to take her to the range. I can do that with my rifle because you DONT need a permit and it's totally legal to do so. Now with a handgun and a carry permit. If I get caught at a supermarket buying groceries (before going to the range) at a restaurant getting something to eat (before going to the range) , or God forbid, at my girlfriend's house to pick her up (before going to the range) while carrying. Can a cop seriously say. "Oh, it's looks like you are outside of your administrative restriction"? BTW. There are 2 ranges where I live.

 

[Celt]

In short, target restriction means its a RESTRICTED CARRY permit. Its a carry permit but restricted for target only. That means carry to and from the range, so keep a range bag in your car too. If caught carrying outside of your restriction you cannot be charged with a crime, but a judge will most likely suspend or revoke your permit and force you to turn over your guns.

As for carrying to and from Pa, if you have a non resident Pa carry permit then you would be fine carrying to and from there.

In regards to duty to retreat and DPF you really need to read and understand Article 35 which is the law as it pertains to the use of DPF (deadly physical force).

https://nypistolsafety.com/topic/concealed-carry/attachment/nys-penal-law-article-35/

Lastly, get some training, as much as you can afford. A single training class from a reputable trainer will teach you far more than you could teach yourself in years on your own. I highly recommend @OnSight Firearms Training found here

https://oftllc.us/

Most importantly, Ianal so this is just my opinion. The most spoken of 2a attorney downstate is Amy Bellantoni, thankfully I have no personal experience to speak of here.

Legal Representation – Advocacy - Attorney

Bellantoni Law offers legal representation and advocacy to clients who seek to protect their civil rights. Our attorneys are qualified and extend advocacy support whenever you need it. With more than 15 years of legal experience we provide comprehensive and personal attention to all clients...

www.bellantoni-law.com

 

[Egret-II]

I think with the “target” restriction you have to have it in a box/range bag unloaded while transporting.

It's a concealed carry permit. Meaning I can carry it in a holster when going to the range. I know that for a fact. My question is if for some reason I have to make a stop at another place other than the range or in the opposite direction of the range.

 

[Egret-II]

In short, target restriction means its a RESTRICTED CARRY permit. Its a carry permit but restricted for target only. That means carry to and from the range, so keep a range bag in your car too. If caught carrying outside of your restriction you cannot be charged with a crime, but a judge will most likely suspend or revoke your permit and force you to turn over your guns.

As for carrying to and from Pa, if you have a non resident Pa carry permit then you would be fine carrying to and from there.

There is no duty to retreat in NY, and you really need to read and understand Article 35 which is the law as it pertains to the use of DPF (deadly physical force).

https://nypistolsafety.com/topic/concealed-carry/attachment/nys-penal-law-article-35/

Lastly, get some training, as much as you can afford. A single training class from a reputable trainer will teach you far more than you could teach yourself in years on your own. I highly recommend @OnSight Firearms Training found here

https://oftllc.us/

Most importantly, Ianal so this is just my opinion. The most spoken of 2a attorney downstate is Amy Bellantoni, thankfully I have no personal experience to speak of here.

Legal Representation – Advocacy - Attorney

Bellantoni Law offers legal representation and advocacy to clients who seek to protect their civil rights. Our attorneys are qualified and extend advocacy support whenever you need it. With more than 15 years of legal experience we provide comprehensive and personal attention to all clients...

www.bellantoni-law.com

Cool, good to know that once i get my non resident PA permit I can carry there.

 

[That_FNG]

Target restriction means you can carry your pistol loaded on your person but only when driving directly too or from a gun range. If you stop along the way for gas/food etc then you would be in violation of that restriction. The restrictions have no force of law, but if found to be violating the restriction the licensing authority can use that as grounds to revoke your permit.

think of it much like the interstate traveler protection. I can drive thru a state with a gun that is not valid in said state, but if I stop my journey for any reason I am not protected by that law anymore.

 

[Tisto]

There are not now, nor have there ever been any restrictions on my permit, so I can't say for sure, but as far as I know, any restriction is an administrative action. How that would affect you if you were ever asked for your permit while you were clearly not going to or from the range is unknown. I would think it would depend upon the circumstances of that particular encounter with that LEO. Most issueing authorities will remove a restriction after one year as long as there have been no problems, but you must petition the courts to do so.

Since you haven't told us where you live, I can only give you information that is very general in term of the Pennsylvania question. NYS permits are issued in most cases by the County Sheriff's Dept. Each county has different rules and procedures. For that matter, each issueing authority in Pennsylvania has different rules and procedures as well. Should you desire to purchase a handgun in Pennsylvania, you would first need to know how your permit office handles it. It could be as simple as buying the gun, and immediately bringing it to your permit office where you would show the receipt, fill out a certificate of non-destruction, pay the fee, and have it added to your permit. Or, it could be much more complicated, including having the handgun transferred to an FFL in NYS. Purchasing a long gun in another State is a different animal. The gun must be legal for you to possess in NY, even if you intend to leave it in Pennsylvania. There may be exceptions to that, but you would need to show Pennsylvania residency, not just owning property. If the long gun is legal for you to possess in NY, you just buy it as if yo were at your local shop. Fill out the 4473, and take it home.

Article 35 is as fluid as the reasons for which you might try to claim it. "Duty to retreat" has limitations. Basically, if you can legitimately express and show that you were in fear of your life or other grave danger and had no ability to escape, then you MAY be justified in using deadly physical force. This should have been taught in your pistol permit course. If you don't understand it, by all means, take another course on A-35.

 

[Egret-II]

There are not now, nor have there ever been any restrictions on my permit, so I can't say for sure, but as far as I know, any restriction is an administrative action. How that would affect you if you were ever asked for your permit while you were clearly not going to or from the range is unknown. I would think it would depend upon the circumstances of that particular encounter with that LEO. Most issueing authorities will remove a restriction after one year as long as there have been no problems, but you must petition the courts to do so.

Since you haven't told us where you live, I can only give you information that is very general in term of the Pennsylvania question. NYS permits are issued in most cases by the County Sheriff's Dept. Each county has different rules and procedures. For that matter, each issueing authority in Pennsylvania has different rules and procedures as well. Should you desire to purchase a handgun in Pennsylvania, you would first need to know how your permit office handles it. It could be as simple as buying the gun, and immediately bringing it to your permit office where you would show the receipt, fill out a certificate of non-destruction, pay the fee, and have it added to your permit. Or, it could be much more complicated, including having the handgun transferred to an FFL in NYS. Purchasing a long gun in another State is a different animal. The gun must be legal for you to possess in NY, even if you intend to leave it in Pennsylvania. There may be exceptions to that, but you would need to show Pennsylvania residency, not just owning property. If the long gun is legal for you to possess in NY, you just buy it as if yo were at your local shop. Fill out the 4473, and take it home.

Article 35 is as fluid as the reasons for which you might try to claim it. "Duty to retreat" has limitations. Basically, if you can legitimately express and show that you were in fear of your life or other grave danger and had no ability to escape, then you MAY be justified in using deadly physical force. This should have been taught in your pistol permit course. If you don't understand it, by all means, take another course on A-35.

I'm in Yorkers, Westchester. Very close to NYC. To get a full carry , I have to provide a "proper cause" (whatever that means) to get the target restriction removed. What "proper cause" other than, to be able to defend myself or my family if a criminal wants to kill me out here do they need?

 

[Bustedknees]

You cut yourself short from the get-go. If people need to list the "why's I need a gun" on the application, list as many as possible.
Hunting, target, collecting, hiking, camping, work, etc...

 

[Celt]

I'm in Yorkers, Westchester. Very close to NYC. To get a full carry , I have to provide a "proper cause" (whatever that means) to get the target restriction removed. What "proper cause" other than, to be able to defend myself or my family if a criminal wants to kill me out here do they need?

Keep your fingers crossed for a good scotus ruling in several months and "good cause " WILL BE self defense.

 

[Edwardteach72]

And last but not least. What is the point (in NY) to carry a gun for self defense if you have to retreat if someone is attacking you? For example. A thug comes to you with a knife. If you just pull out your gun and shoot him (self defense). You go to jail, because you had the chance to run away since a knife wont kill you at a distance.

Maybe while waiting on finding out info for your first couple of questions you should spend the time actually reading and learning NYS use of force laws vs just making up the duty to retreat part

 

[Doc8404]

I think with the “target” restriction you have to have it in a box/range bag unloaded while transporting.

depends on the county. Here in Oneida, you can even go to dinner or Walmart if it’s to or from the range.

 

[Doc8404]

Target restriction means you can carry your pistol loaded on your person but only when driving directly too or from a gun range. If you stop along the way for gas/food etc then you would be in violation of that restriction. The restrictions have no force of law, but if found to be violating the restriction the licensing authority can use that as grounds to revoke your permit.

think of it much like the interstate traveler protection. I can drive thru a state with a gun that is not valid in said state, but if I stop my journey for any reason I am not protected by that law anymore.

incorrect for many counties. Are you speaking specifically for OP’s?

 

[GOPerfect]

And last but not least. What is the point (in NY) to carry a gun for self defense if you have to retreat if someone is attacking you? For example. A thug comes to you with a knife. If you just pull out your gun and shoot him (self defense). You go to jail, because you had the chance to run away since a knife wont kill you at a distance. It doesnt matter if the thug was a career criminal. Even if the thug has a GUN I think you have to, at least, try to run away... look what happened in the case of Kyle Rittenhouse. If that would have been in NY. he would have been in Jail!!
That's all... for now.

Before being overly concerned on where you can and can not carry and when you can; my advice would be to read Article 35 of the New York State Penal code. Everything you said here is 100% incorrect.

I am not an attorney, but I know the laws rather well, this will hurt you in the long run if you live by the words you typed.

 

[Egret-II]

Maybe while waiting on finding out info for your first couple of questions you should spend the time actually reading and learning NYS use of force laws vs just making up the duty to retreat part

Read this article.

Self-Defense | New York Criminal Defense Lawyers Tilem & Associates

Free Consultation - Call 877-377-8666 - Tilem & Associates aggressively represents the accused against charges in Criminal Defense & Crime cases. Self-Defense - New York Criminal Defense Lawyer

www.google.com

Specifically this part.

Then after that part it says " that if you are in YOUR house you dont have a duty to retreat.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Read this article.

Self-Defense | New York Criminal Defense Lawyers Tilem & Associates

Free Consultation - Call 877-377-8666 - Tilem & Associates aggressively represents the accused against charges in Criminal Defense & Crime cases. Self-Defense - New York Criminal Defense Lawyer

www.google.com

Specifically this part.
View attachment 143855
Then after that part it says " that if you are in YOUR house you dont have a duty to retreat.

"Read this article"

Or maybe Read the actual Article 35 and maybe take a class on the subject

 

[GOPerfect]

Read this article.

Self-Defense | New York Criminal Defense Lawyers Tilem & Associates

Free Consultation - Call 877-377-8666 - Tilem & Associates aggressively represents the accused against charges in Criminal Defense & Crime cases. Self-Defense - New York Criminal Defense Lawyer

www.google.com

Specifically this part.
View attachment 143855
Then after that part it says " that if you are in YOUR house you dont have a duty to retreat.

Need to read and understand all of it:

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.

 

[Egret-II]

"Read this article"

Or maybe Read the actual Article 35 and maybe take a class on the subject

Ok then. I'll follow what you are saying. It's actually better for me!

 

[GOPerfect]

Ok then. I'll follow what you are saying. It's actually better for me!

No one here is dogging on you. Knowledge is power and power is knowledge.

On this forum, there are many really smart and knowledgeable members from all different walks of life.

We discuss Article 35 a decent amount and we learn more each time we speak of it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Ok then. I'll follow what you are saying. It's actually better for me!

New york isn't exactly AS bad as people think when it comes to self defense.. but people think that it's duty retreat for everything because of horrible fudd lore that we need to nip in the bud.. no need to help the state cuck people any more than they already do

 

[That_FNG]

incorrect for many counties. Are you speaking specifically for OP’s?

I’m basing it upon what Erie county pistol permit judge told me. Idk if this applies to every county, but based upon his proximity to nyc they tend to be more strict down there.

 

[Tisto]

New york isn't exactly AS bad as people think when it comes to self defense.. but people think that it's duty retreat for everything because of horrible fudd lore that we need to nip in the bud.. no need to help the state cuck people any more than they already do

It's not all cut and dried though. NYS used to be much more open to the justified use of force. Although the letter of the law hasn't changed, the way a DA will look at a self defense case today is very different than the way it was looked at 30 years ago.

OP, the closer you get to the shithole, the more restrictive the issueing authority seems to be, generally speaking. Coming from the opposite end of the State, I would expect your county to view things with a higher level of scrutiny.

 

[Cooolone]

Ok, I'll be the ruffle the feathers guy!

First, maybe you should try using the search feature as this subject is well worn!

Second, it's never a good idea to ask a legal question online, so good luck with that... There's plenty of directions all the information provided could take you!

I'll add my $.02¢...

There is absolutely nothing written in the laws of the State of NY which define a "restricted" firearm license. So, as noted, it is an administrative attachment by the issuing authority and has no force of law! Even to revoke your license for violating those adminstrative attachments is then a violation of your Right that has been bestowed upon you by the issuing authority. Blah blah blah...

I'm going to assume based upon your responses above you wish to carry...?

Then the real question is back at you! What are you prepared to do, should you get in the shit and have to fight for your rights? Will you (fight)? Or buckle and bow down to some deal the judge offers (arbitrarily)...? Would you say no thank you? Appeal the judgement? Hire a lawyer and fight?

If not, then stop asking questions!

Again, read the law as it is written. A judge does not make law, and there's a helluva lot of BS that goes on in NY. The adminstrative attachments are just a hunch of bullshit! How do I know? Well... Ask anyone to provide you some case history or precedent where a license holder had their privilege removed because of carrying outside those adminstrative restrictions! Go ahead! Try... And I'm not talking about anything else, like getting stopped and having 2 lbs of heroin in the trunk, etc. Just that someone was found to be carrying outside their restrictions and had their privilege removed!

So... All the other BS too, only from/to the range, no stop, make sure ammo is separate, locked box, blah blah blah... Even carrying while transversing through NY Shitty... All BS!

Ask everyone here how many times they've ever been stopped and or asked for their license? Even when printing and you get that eyeball by either an undercover or a security guard, people who know what to look for... I have never EVER been questioned! Ever!

But maybe I'm old school and just know what to do and how to act, and don't worry about the small stuff or bullshit noise. The impression that the State Govt Jedi mind tricks everyone into thinking the big bad wolf is coming to kick the door in.

Carry, and be smart, enjoy the range and have fun!

I'm not a lawyer and nothing above should be considered legal advice. Lmao!

 

[togmaster]

Before you carry train and become proficient with your firearm including the ability to draw from a concealed holster. The choice on when and where to carry are your own. Read/understand the law and live with your decisions.

 

[Saltwater60]

Be smart and use your head and chances are you’ll be fine carry in or out of your restrictions. Talk to people around you and see what happens. I’m across the state, but I know of no one who had their permit revoked for anything other than an actually crime. A few got suspended after DWI’s, but we’re able to get them back.
Keep it concealed and people won’t know you have it. As stated keep a range bag and then you’re going target shooting. Only problem is ranges aren’t open all the time. Most cops won’t give you a hard time about it that I know, but I dont know any in your area though.
As for the duty to retreat the words are in there so be aware of it and if it’s just you and you alone in danger on the streets then it’s relevant, but a case can always be made you or others were or could be in danger right? After all the guy running around with a knife you could retreat, but the 85 year old that walks out of the grocery store after you leave may not be able to. Yes NYS is not friendly against self defense situations, but if you’re going to carry you have to make up your mind on what you will do in a situation before that situations arises.
Certainly you’ll never be able to make up every situation you might encounter in your life before they happen, but have a general idea and be prepared mentally for what you will do in this situations. As stated take a class that covers article 35 and how situations are handled. I took one and it changed my thinking. First I thought oh I’ll intervene and help anyone out for anything, then I took the class and it was like nope not for me. I’ll help me and my family out and others in direct danger, but your not a LEO.
Also keep in mind not all those with a gun around you are bad. I go to a large church where lots of people carry. I try to know who they all are and introduce myself so I do t shoot one of them and they don’t shoot me if it comes time to act. It happens.
Welcome to the forum and hang around. It’s a good place.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I think with the “target” restriction you have to have it in a box/range bag unloaded while transporting.

Just like if you have a baseball bat... Make sure to have a mitt and ball with it as well.


To the OP
You have a "duty to retreat" but it's not that simple. Here's an example.


I'm pumping gas with my kids in the car. a crackhead comes at me and pulls a knife. Even though I am able to retreat and can back up into a wide open parking lot, If I continue to retreat now said crackhead is between me and my kids putting them in imminent danger. I am legally allowed to defend them.

There are countless scenarios like the above. Be careful in how you word and describe your actions.



Edit, see above @Saltwater60 suggestion to take class on article 35 is very important.

Be VERY wary about interfering as a 3rd party into a situation that you are not 100% sure of.

If you see what appears to be a guy assaulting a woman, are you going to defend her? How do you know he's not a plain clothes detective trying to arrest her? Things are not as clear cut as you would believe.



.

 

[Celt]

I think with the “target” restriction you have to have it in a box/range bag unloaded while transporting.

Not for Westchester, and I didnt think that was the case anywhere in NYS as it is a carry permit. With a Premise permit that would be correct, and thats typically all 2nd class citizens can get in NYC.

 

[Egret-II]

Be smart and use your head and chances are you’ll be fine carry in or out of your restrictions. Talk to people around you and see what happens. I’m across the state, but I know of no one who had their permit revoked for anything other than an actually crime. A few got suspended after DWI’s, but we’re able to get them back.
Keep it concealed and people won’t know you have it. As stated keep a range bag and then you’re going target shooting. Only problem is ranges aren’t open all the time. Most cops won’t give you a hard time about it that I know, but I dont know any in your area though.
As for the duty to retreat the words are in there so be aware of it and if it’s just you and you alone in danger on the streets then it’s relevant, but a case can always be made you or others were or could be in danger right? After all the guy running around with a knife you could retreat, but the 85 year old that walks out of the grocery store after you leave may not be able to. Yes NYS is not friendly against self defense situations, but if you’re going to carry you have to make up your mind on what you will do in a situation before that situations arises.
Certainly you’ll never be able to make up every situation you might encounter in your life before they happen, but have a general idea and be prepared mentally for what you will do in this situations. As stated take a class that covers article 35 and how situations are handled. I took one and it changed my thinking. First I thought oh I’ll intervene and help anyone out for anything, then I took the class and it was like nope not for me. I’ll help me and my family out and others in direct danger, but your not a LEO.
Also keep in mind not all those with a gun around you are bad. I go to a large church where lots of people carry. I try to know who they all are and introduce myself so I do t shoot one of them and they don’t shoot me if it comes time to act. It happens.
Welcome to the forum and hang around. It’s a good place.

I'll see if I can find a place to take a class on article 35 like you and some other members suggested.