Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
You aren’t a prohibited person. With limited exceptions, a prohibited person can not be in possession of ammo therefore no crime would be suspected in your possession of an ammo box. That’s a big difference.
NY's Vindictive Plans for carry - special session next week to respond to SCOTUS's ruling. (Merged)
- Thread starter Cavalry
- Start date
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
law section ??
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Most ammo cans in the back seat of a car do not contain guns or ammo.
Whether you're prohibited or not. They're more likely to have tools or change, or drugs, or whatever.
Just because NY judges will let you get away with saying it's probable cause doesn't make it really probable.
Just because all the people you pull that shit on can't afford a decent lawyer doesn't make it good either.
Try it on some NFL player with a felony and your "probable cause" will get thrown out faster than you can say "bullshit".
Of the ammo cans you have searched using the probable cause justification, how many actually had guns ? Not drugs, because no way can you claim an ammo can is probable cause for drugs, but an actual gun ?
I'd bet there are more guns hidden in the back seat or prohibited person's cars that are in a brown paper bag than an ammo can. Does that make paper bags probable cause too ?
Nope, as far as I am concerned any notion of probable cause that can't be backed up with actual data is bullshit.
Maybe NY court approved bullshit, but bullshit none the less.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Utter bullshit.
Ammo cans are far more likely to carry something that isn't ammo.
Are you trying to claim that prohibited persons are *more* likely to keep their guns in ammo cans than legal gun owners are ?
Just because courts will buy that bullshit against someone who can't afford a decent lawyer doesn't make it not bullshit.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Define "failed" ?
Our current model allows almost all criminals to get away with their crimes almost all time time. Probably 99% of crimes committed go unsolved.
He'll, even 50% of murders go unsolved.
How much more "failed" can it get ?
No, fuck that, asking people to sacrifice their rights so that your failure rate goes from 99% to 98% is bullshit.
And note 99% to 98% means you guys catch *twice* as many criminals. But in the real world, even that large a difference is barely noticeable.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
Paints my ammo cans blue and puts United Nations logo on them LMAO ..
the Dildo Can LOL ..
the Dildo Can LOL ..
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
@Truebeliever .. if a person is prohibited ,, then why are they out in public ?
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Google is your friend. Federal law ( gun control act of1968) as well as many local ordinances.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Good question but a felon has a process to get their rights restored. Many are out on parole.
Some are on probation.
Some are crazy people but are considered sane while on the medication they often stop taking without warning.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Mere possession of ammo is illegal for them to possess. It’s an ammo can- it likely to have ammo
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Not the model of policing . Broken windows worked. Homicides dropped dramatically. It’s the woke DA’s and the bail reform for the increase in crime.
In fact, police departments moved away from broken windows and proactive policing since the mike brown lies etc etc.
It’s now more like the model you advocate.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
“I, ____________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States..
unless he is a bumbling idiot .. lol
unless he is a bumbling idiot .. lol
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You're right about the problem being largely in the DA's offices and Legislatures. What you miss is that neither of those problems can be fixed with more aggressive policing.
What we have now is nothing like the model I advocate. The model I advocate would drop crime overnight by about 80% by the simple and foolproof method of making most of the things people are arrested for now not a crime.
Crime requires an identified victim. Bam, crime down about 70% the next day. Yep, that would eliminate any crime with the word "possession" in it (except maybe stolen property).
If you're metric for "good policing" is just no crime, then we should just eliminate the bill of rights and go for the "guilty until proven innocent" method some other countries use. Add in some public, draconian punishment Vlad Tepes style and you'd have near perfect policing.
That is not the metric I would use to judge policing.
My metric would be the ratio of how much policing interferes with people committing crimes vs how much it interferes with people not committing crimes. Crimes defined as someone violating the rights of someone else.
Our whole system is so badly broken it needs a reboot. Like throw everything besides the constitution out the window and start from scratch with a clean slate.
The mistake made when this country was founded was basing things on English common law and not starting from scratch and developing a coherent system based on rights.
Actually, I believe that the law is being stretched to allow for the current interpretation. A green steel can that once upon a time contained ammo or was manufactured for that purpose should be no indication of what it's contents are now. There are no studies that back up the statistics being touted. 51% or more that it contains ammo ? I highly doubt it. In fact, I would put money on it. Find 100 random vehicles on a random highway that have an ammo can in them and let's see what they contain. I would bet that more than 50% have tools in them. A large percentage will have first aid / survival type items in them. I would even bet that a higher percentage of them would contain illegal drugs than those that contain ammunition.
Just because some judge believes the bullshit and issues a warrant does not make your assumption that there is ammo inside correct.
I would like to see ACTUAL EVIDENCE used given to get a search warrant, not YOUR SUPER COP GUT INSTINCT.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
I bet if someone looked up the data on people arrested for a search based on an ammo can being probable cause you would find out that more of the arrests were for drugs than guns.
That would obviously prove they cannot be probable cause.
But, he is saying that it is probable cause because judges in NY will allow that if you don't get a good lawyer.
Anyone on this site should be well aware that just because some NY judge says something doesn't make it so.
He said that a locked guitar case would NOT be probable cause. He admitted it. So, the idea of buying a few guitar cases to put my fully semiautomatic high power sub machine guns complete with 300 round clipazines and a stock thingy that goes up in them will never draw suspicion. Maybe I should get one for my meth and heroin too. Oh, and one more to put all my money in. And finally one more for ammo !
What he's arguing is a law that has been bastardized and stretched to the point of absurdity.
What he's arguing is a law that has been bastardized and stretched to the point of absurdity.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The following are crimes under your method correct?
Murder
Rape
Burglary
Grand larceny
Assault ( felonies)
Arson
And maybe grand theft auto.
That’s how crime is measured now. Those are the seven majors. Drug or gun related arrests are not used to measure crime as it is.
Who does crime? Often it’s drug addicts. And it’s not just to buy drugs. They want drugs AND the stuff everyone else has. Because of their drug use, they don’t hold a job with an income to provide that. So they steal, and rob. Going after drug dealers and users is like what you do to stop malaria. You stop the mosquitoes or in this case illegal drug trafficking.
The woke DAs aren’t everywhere and their time is starting to come to an end.
But things aren’t even close to how they were with people with the same mentality that you are pushing of let the cops concentrate on the bigger things. We don’t want regular cops doing the drug arrests either. Concentrate on going to 911 calls.
Thats was done in the late 70s, the 80s and early 80’s until broken windows policing was put into place. And police went after the small stuff. The small stuff leads to or prevents the bigger stuff.
Go look up the murder, robbery, rape rates in the 1970s, 1980s and the early 90s.
United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019
United States crime statistics, United States , United States rape, United States murder, United States property crime, United States crime index, United States violent crime, violent crime in State, United States burglary, United States vehicle theft, United States larceny, United States...
www.disastercenter.com
Criminals who do the big crimes have a hard time not doing the small crimes too. They don’t think about it . That’s how they get caught.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
And criminals do that as well. But If you were afraid the neighbors would dial the police if you had guns, would you advise it by carrying an ammo can from the car for them to see. A guitar case would be smart.
Other things can lead to believe their are guns present.
Once I was at house and I noticed the owner had a bottle of break-free CLP on his garage shelf. I pointed it out and asked what kind of guns does he have. He got defensive and denied having any. The dirty patches and the Breakfree says otherwise. He was lying. He knew, I knew he was lying At that point, I didn’t want to “know “more. But could I have gotten a warrant if I knew he was a prohibited person? Maybe.
It’s a totality of the circumstances .
And yes, I use Breakfree on things other than guns but I don’t know anyone who uses Breakfree that doesn’t also have or has guns.
You really like to stretch things to the limit, don't you ?
Is that can of either in my garage an indication of freebasing too ?
I can tell right now that if you looked at my plumbing repair supplies you would accuse me of making bombs. It's all bullshit. It's all just supposition.
Is that can of either in my garage an indication of freebasing too ?
I can tell right now that if you looked at my plumbing repair supplies you would accuse me of making bombs. It's all bullshit. It's all just supposition.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The problem is not that we don't arrest people fast enough.
The problem is that we let them right back out.
You can arrest them as fast as you want, but if they're right back out in 4 hours it does nothing but breed contempt for the law.
That's the problem with "broken windows". People are right back out, and your plan is just to keep arresting them faster because you can't keep them off the street.
That's like bailing water on the Titanic. The solution is not more hands or bigger buckets..
The solution is you don't let them back out unless you have a reasonable expectation they aren't going to be right back in.
I'd say something like every conviction is an automatic doubling of the sentence for every subsequent conviction.
Yep, that means a 24 hour "time served" turns into 3 years if it's #10 for you.
Don't need "broken windows" if you stop bussing criminals right back into the neighborhood.
The fact is that almost all "real" crime is committed by people who have already been convicted for something previously.
That means way fewer crimes, because the criminals are all behind bars. So you have way more man hours to devote to each "real" crime.
That means enough time to actually investigate everything. Imagine having the man power to bother dusting for prints for a stolen car stereo. Odds are that guy is already on file, and now you have a name and address.
You wouldn't need to go fishing and hope you catch some guy with some meth in an ammo can and a broken tail light and a trunk full of stolen radios.
It's a much better solution.
A justice system only works when people realize they will probably not get away with a crime.
What we have now is most criminals figure they will almost certainly get away with it. You only catch them because they roll the dice over and over amd over till they eventuslly lose.
DrBleachCocktail
.44 mag
It was explained during the debate. Only while on duty, personal firearm must go through the exact process like everyone else.
Phazer
.338 Win Mag
Ahhh....the proverbial "tactical box of dicks."
So if you pull me over and see a rifle case in my back seat you automatically assume I have a rifle with me.
And if I was on private property after Sept 1st I am now a felon.
And so you have "probable cause" to search my truck?
And find, what? The HO-scale model trains I was taking to my local club?
So when you open the case and dump all of my expensive models on the ground who pays for it?
your "totality of circumstance" is nothing more than illegal search.
you give cops a bad name.
MothMan
.338 Win Mag
Trying to get past the ammo can debate. 
/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gray/DAWGFGX2ZBCSRIPZBTU5RCYS5I.png)
www.wwnytv.com
Under new law, can you carry a gun in Adirondack Park?
Governor Hochul's office says yes; some legislators say new law makes it illegal.
www.wwnytv.com
BerettaGuy
.308 Win
In my day, the Ohaus Tripel Beam alone was not considered paraphernalia or probable cause. Now, throw in some loose green vegetative substance or traces of white powder, and boom, just like that, paraphernalia.
A pair of channel locks in your pocket is not burglar tools. You, being a convicted burglar with a pair of channel locks in your pocket, and boom now you are in possession of burglar tools.
A storage box that was designed to hold 50 caliber cartridges or other ammo, that is sold in stores hither and yon as a water-tight storage box is no indication of any other contraband and may be probable cause for a paranoid, Gen Z progressive woke gender-confused 30-something cop, educated by a progressive anti-America system of Government Unionized teachers and bureaucrats.
But the PC doctrine says it must raise suspicion of a "reasonable man". Even that today is effed up! Unless you are a reasonable biologist.
Clown world! Where your wife putting a small baggie of sugar in your lunch bag can get you arrested.
4WHLDRFTN
6.5 Creedmoor
These hold 1000rds 
