Sig Sauer P226

[Marine Cpl]

Sig dropped the ball so hard on not pushing for the XM17 to be in .357sig
I mean talk about a marketing fail. The military at the same time had been asking if anyone can give them a harder hitting round with better penetration than a standard 9mm, then they asked for a new side arm, but also never specified what caliber they left that up to the companies and what they wanted to offer

Sig could have come up with a packaged deal for the guns and ammo (even a 9mm conversion barrel to use up the 9mm surplus then transition over to sig produced and supplied .357sig)

Even if they would have thrown in the conversion barrel for free to the military, they would have made a killing on us civies with ammo alone to more than compensate for it. Than NATO would start looking at it because the Americans were going to soon convert. Fail! Whoever is in charge of SIG has been making poor decisions lately.

Price and availability is the only reason I haven't converted. I think pound for pound the .357 Sig should be on top as far as performance goes.

 

[Podmonkey]

Sig dropped the ball so hard on not pushing for the XM17 to be in .357sig
I mean talk about a marketing fail. The military at the same time had been asking if anyone can give them a harder hitting round with better penetration than a standard 9mm, then they asked for a new side arm, but also never specified what caliber they left that up to the companies and what they wanted to offer

Sig could have come up with a packaged deal for the guns and ammo (even a 9mm conversion barrel to use up the 9mm surplus then transition over to sig produced and supplied .357sig)

The Army was never going to switch calibers.
The talk regarding "increased effectiveness" in pistol ammunition was in regards to the consideration of adopting hollow point ammunition. Not a different caliber.
I agree that the 357 SIG would make a good military caliber but in truth pistols are not very important on the battlefield so investment in them is pretty minimal. Even the SIG contract is not that much in the larger picture of things.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The Army was never going to switch calibers.
The talk regarding "increased effectiveness" in pistol ammunition was in regards to the consideration of adopting hollow point ammunition. Not a different caliber.
I agree that the 357 SIG would make a good military caliber but in truth pistols are not very important on the battlefield so investment in them is pretty minimal. Even the SIG contract is not that much in the larger picture of things.

The military was "open" to looking at all different types of ammo and along with hollow points they did say they would be into the idea of different calibers

 

[Marine Cpl]

Army Picks Sig Sauer's P320 Handgun to Replace M9 Service Pistol

One of the major goals of the effort was to adopt a pistol chambered for a more potent round than the current 9mm. The U.S. military replaced the .45 caliber 1911 pistol with the M9 in 1985 and began using the 9mm NATO round at that time.

In their statements, Army and Sig officials didn't specify what caliber the new Sig Sauer pistol will be.

 

[Marine Cpl]

But I agree with Pod. The military rarely uses pistols in the battlefield. Rarely. There was a SEAL who came on the Howard Stern show who said that he doesn't even take one on missions. Ounces equals pounds is what he said. He said that if he ever needed a pistol, he would just use his rifle. And if he didn't have one, his buddy would cover him while he picked up an enemies rifle or went into his ruck for his extra magazines if empty.

I think they should get rid of the pistol entirely and just have a .223 20 inch bullpup similar to the P90 that weighs almost nothing when strapped to your chest and can still be worn while sitting for soldiers requiring only a pistol.

You would even be able to shoot it one handed if need be.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Interesting that you say that, Will. I saw an article in PopMech a few weeks ago that Army had sent out a (very) preliminary request for info from manufacturers basically asking whether they have, or could make, something like this. I don't recall all the details; implication was they're looking for ether a PDW or new subgun (or both) that could essentially equip vehicle crews, etc.

I think MP's and the like (and probably officers) will always have a sidearm but I like where you're going with this.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sorry OP I didnt mean to derail your post (I sadly have a tendency to do that)

So more importantly than .357sig being an awesome round, and the fact I hate Sig in general but would for sure never pass up a 226 in .357 at a sweet deal like that.


Looking forward to seeing the pics and hearing the sweet range report

 

[Marine Cpl]

Interesting that you say that, Will. I saw an article in PopMech a few weeks ago that Army had sent out a (very) preliminary request for info from manufacturers basically asking whether they have, or could make, something like this. I don't recall all the details; implication was they're looking for ether a PDW or new subgun (or both) that could essentially equip vehicle crews, etc.

I think MP's and the like (and probably officers) will always have a sidearm but I like where you're going with this.

It was actually @Podmonkey 's idea in another thread so I cannot take the credit.

 

[Cooolone]

i didnt take you for one who wore a dress, but hell yea good for you, i mean if you are confident enough go for it

Hahahaha, while I am secure in my masculinity, I'm not entirely sure I'd go that route! LMAO!

357sig
crazy expensive and hard to find.

Old thinking... And yeah, expensive compared to what? 9mm... You can convert (slide/barrel), but I don't. I shoot what I carry. So if I train, each 1k rounds will cost me $320+/- instead of $200+/- for 9mm? Not such a big deal... Not to me anyways, especially with my lack of shooting lately I might get to doing my reloads some day, just never interested me enough to jump into the weeds.

Fact is the .357 round has a flatter trajectory, is more reliable and provides my penetration/energy than most handgun rounds (except the magnums). Would love to see it more widely accepted and used, as noted, to drive ammo prices down, but it's ok. It is what it is...

 

[Marine Cpl]

Energy doesn't kill but what the .357 gives you if more barrier penetration.

 

[Podmonkey]

Energy doesn't kill but what the .357 gives you if more barrier penetration.

Energy kills if the projectile is designed to harness it properly.

 

[Criticalt]

Energy kills if the projectile is designed to harness it properly.

Which most pistol ammo does not.
Speed kills.
More speed=more penetration
Pistol caliber ammo is designed to cause damage to blood carrying organs. You need speed to get through cloths, bone, muscle......the things that protect blood containing organs.
Rifle ammo is different and MUCH more effective.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Energy kills if the projectile is designed to harness it properly.

In a rifle it may but it has to be extremely close to a vital like the heart or spinal column and even then it isn't 100 percent. The late Dr. Fackler says it's negligible and he was a trusted expert with years of experience treating combat wounds from rifle fire. He was also a trusted adviser to the FBI ballistics research.

In a pistol it absolutely doesn't have any effect or else all those people shot throughout the years with a pistol would have never made it to a hospital and survived. More people survive pistol wounds than die from them.

Terms like energy, energy dump, and stopping power have sold a lot of bullets and guns.

 

[Podmonkey]

Keep it simple and use your noodle guys.
If I I have more energy available I can design a bullet to have more expansion without sacrificing penetration.
Energy=work. Just need a design that maximizes the work done.

 

[Criticalt]

Keep it simple and use your noodle guys.
If I I have more energy available I can design a bullet to have more expansion without sacrificing penetration.
Energy=work. Just need a design that maximizes the work done.

Yep, like a 30 cal rifle round.
They have killed alot of people and animals through history.
Good energy, good power and good speed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Keep it simple and use your noodle guys.
If I I have more energy available I can design a bullet to have more expansion without sacrificing penetration.
Energy=work. Just need a design that maximizes the work done.

More expansion yes. But expansion itself doesn't immediately kill someone from the larger wound channel unless it hits a vital. I will concede that an expanded bullet has more chance of clipping a vital if it's next to it but it comes at a cost of more recoil and follow up shot speed. It's a wash in my opinion with pistol bullets. They all expand within millimeters of one another and penetrate within inches of one another.

A faster bullet would be more barrier blind though.

 

[Cooolone]

Energy is most definitely the deciding factor in "stopping" power and tissue damage.

You can poke 10 .22 holes and the target will bleed out, you can hit your target with one 600lb+/- projectile and stop the target in its tracks. I am secure in my conviction that given the choice with a 300lb drug crazed lunatic coming at me with an axe, I'd take the .357Sig over any other handgun caliber, well... maybe I'd take the .44Mag, lol!

Speed/weight=Energy and there's no way to hide from it. Those tiny little .223 rounds cause massive tissue damage due to.... "energy" at impact. It's simple physics, no escaping from it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Energy is most definitely the deciding factor in "stopping" power and tissue damage.

You can poke 10 .22 holes and the target will bleed out, you can hit your target with one 600lb+/- projectile and stop the target in its tracks. I am secure in my conviction that given the choice with a 300lb drug crazed lunatic coming at me with an axe, I'd take the .357Sig over any other handgun caliber, well... maybe I'd take the .44Mag, lol!

Speed/weight=Energy and there's no way to hide from it. Those tiny little .223 rounds cause massive tissue damage due to.... "energy" at impact. It's simple physics, no escaping from it.

Nope. Those .223 rounds cause massive tissue damage from the temporal stretch cavity stretching past the point of elasticity and tearing. Pistols can't and don't do that. It's a velocity thing. Not an energy thing. Apples and oranges. You can't compare a pistol to a rifle round.

Even experts from the FBI says this but you'd rather believe your gut. Okay.

A shot to fat, muscle, and flesh without hitting vitals isn't going to be much different at 1250 fps expanding to .587 compared to a shot at 1500 fps expanding to .689. Sure the wound would be larger but it isn't going to knock you out or make you bleed out immediately to stop you. Hell, a shot to a femoral artery from a rifle doesn't make you bleed out immediately to stop you. You still have minutes of fight left in you before you bleed out. It's impossible for flesh to bleed out faster than an artery. So how exactly does a pistol round that goes 300 to 400 fps faster but still way below the point of where it's goes beyond the point of elasticity failure any better if it doesn't hit any vitals?

Multiple knife wounds do more damage and they aren't immediate stoppers unless vitals are stuck too.

 

[71velle]

357 sig excels in two areas. Barrier penetration and long shooting shooting. It is fun because in has a crazy blast but not good if you fire indoors without ear protection.

 

[BR3ND0]

500 is a steal. Scoop it up. Crazy not too. No matter the caliber. Sig P226 is the top gun on anyones top 5 list

 

[Upstate43]

but better
and if thats the case just swap to 9mm

Marginally better, if you really get into the weeds. .40s&w offers similar, though not the same, ballistic characteristics to .357 sig and is more readily available.

The Army was never going to switch calibers.
The talk regarding "increased effectiveness" in pistol ammunition was in regards to the consideration of adopting hollow point ammunition. Not a different caliber.
I agree that the 357 SIG would make a good military caliber but in truth pistols are not very important on the battlefield so investment in them is pretty minimal. Even the SIG contract is not that much in the larger picture of things.

Agree. Sidearms are backup weapons, or, to paraphrase a quote from a well-known firearms instructor: a pistol is a weapon used when your rifle is unavailable. To be honest, with the all the gear the modern grunt is carrying, I never saw pistols being employed all that often in the field (outside of training). The weight was unnecessary given that a centerfire rifle will accomplish all the required tasks.

Any investment by the DOD into the development of new pistol platforms needed to be just enough to allow for adequate performance.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Marginally better, if you really get into the weeds. .40s&w offers similar, though not the same, ballistic characteristics to .357 sig and is more readily available.


Hahhahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhaa .40sw
Hahahahahhahahaha



Agree. Sidearms are backup weapons, or, to paraphrase a quote from a well-known firearms instructor: a pistol is a weapon used when your rifle is unavailable. To be honest, with the all the gear the modern grunt is carrying, I never saw pistols being employed all that often in the field (outside of training). The weight was unnecessary given that a centerfire rifle will accomplish all the required tasks.

Any investment by the DOD into the development of new pistol platforms needed to be just enough to allow for adequate performance.