Snowden, Patriot or Traitor?

Robin

Robin

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
20,300
Reaction score
43,959
Location
Livingston County
Seems President Trump will be rethinking his position on the matter of Edward Snowden. So will I, not that my thoughts on the subject have any weight beyond my own craving to see the right thing done, in any situation.
www.dailymail.co.uk

Donald Trump is 'going to take a look' at pardoning Edward Snowden

Edward Snowden, the former CIA contractor who in 2013 leaked a massive trove of documents about government surveillance, could be pardoned, Donald Trump said on Saturday evening.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
Robin
 
spat

spat

.700 Nitro Express
Messages
29,805
Reaction score
62,784
Location
Formerly Geneseo, NY. Now free in AZ
TEOTWAWKI inc. said:
One can effectively be both

Any true patriot would be tried for treason
Click to expand...
Loyalty to the country and loyalty to the government are often confused for each other.

They are not the same thing.

Usually they coincide, but in some circumstances they are diametrically opposed.

The more they are opposed, the bigger the chances you are living in "interesting times".
 
Robin

Robin

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
20,300
Reaction score
43,959
Location
Livingston County
Pretty much nailed my thoughts on that.
Back when this story first broke it was very difficult trying to find articles about what actually happened, like so much of todays news it was heavily editorialized and filled with outright lies. Maybe this time around it will be easier to find the truth but probably not, big media has really honed their falsity skills pretty good.
Robin
 
BDinPutnam

BDinPutnam

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
14,491
Reaction score
20,858
Location
Someplace else
Traitor.

If he were really a patriot he would have had ample opportunities to blow the whistle without having to run to China and then later become an intelligence asset for Russia.

The same is true of Manning vis a vis his indiscriminate release of information on Wikileaks.

Both should swing.
 
tirwin1

tirwin1

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
16,884
Reaction score
46,791
Location
rochester
kev74 said:
Russia offered him a safe haven. His alternative was likely being treated like an enemy combatant and being disappeared and never seen or heard from again.
Click to expand...
Riggggghhhht. No strings attached. Just out of the goodness of their hearts. And he didn't share a single thing with them. From what I understand he is allowed to talk to all the western media he wants to criticize the US but he's not allowed to talk to Russian media about Russian programs.
 
spat

spat

.700 Nitro Express
Messages
29,805
Reaction score
62,784
Location
Formerly Geneseo, NY. Now free in AZ
BDinPutnam said:
Traitor.

If he were really a patriot he would have had ample opportunities to blow the whistle without having to run to China and then later become an intelligence asset for Russia.

The same is true of Manning vis a vis his indiscriminate release of information on Wikileaks.

Both should swing.
Click to expand...
If it's the Obama/Clinton administration you are blowing the whistle on, Russia is probably the only safe place for you to run.
 
kev74

kev74

20×102mm Vulcan
Messages
49,993
Reaction score
158,181
Location
Orange Co.
tirwin1 said:
Riggggghhhht. No strings attached. Just out of the goodness of their hearts. And he didn't share a single thing with them. From what I understand he is allowed to talk to all the western media he wants to criticize the US but he's not allowed to talk to Russian media about Russian programs.
Click to expand...
There were many strings attached. But to him, making a deal with Russia was a better alternative than being shipped to Guantanamo or some CIA hideout and being beaten and tortured for the next 30 years.
 
BDinPutnam

BDinPutnam

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
14,491
Reaction score
20,858
Location
Someplace else
kev74 said:
There were many strings attached. But to him, making a deal with Russia was a better alternative than being shipped to Guantanamo or some CIA hideout and being beaten and tortured for the next 30 years.
Click to expand...

There were plenty of other ways to do what he wanted to do that would not have landed him in either Gitmo or Moscow (or Beijing, for that matter).

I think he thinks he's a lot smarter than he is.
 
kev74

kev74

20×102mm Vulcan
Messages
49,993
Reaction score
158,181
Location
Orange Co.
BDinPutnam said:
There were plenty of other ways to do what he wanted to do that would not have landed him in either Gitmo or Moscow (or Beijing, for that matter).

I think he thinks he's a lot smarter than he is.
Click to expand...
I agree. But, as far as I can tell, he did what he thought was the right thing. And he did it fully expecting to personally face repercussions for those actions.

I respect him for that.
 
Blimey

Blimey

.450/400 Nitro Ex
Messages
11,274
Reaction score
16,251
Location
Western NY
tirwin1 said:
I have tried to understand his motivation but the trip to Russia is too much for me. For such a supposedly smart guy he seems rather naive.
Click to expand...
He's stayed out of prison because of that, so maybe not a terrible move.

Whistle blowing would have gotten him nowhere. Case in point: nobody has been even charged with a crime over the info he shared. I think his only two options were to do what he did or do nothing.
 
Drinkthekoolaid

Drinkthekoolaid

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
16,369
Reaction score
29,031
Location
Unfortunately, NY
This is something I've pondered before, and I realized I will never have the honest answer. We'll never know the truth.


We'll never be given the full, complete, unredacted version of events to know.

It's very obfuscated at this point.

My initial reaction was he was a traitor. Over time I've shifted to thinking he might be more of a patriot.

I don't like him hurting US national interests, but clearly the government is doing things they shouldn't be and even against US citizens. People need to keep the government honest.

I think @spat made a great post on this topic.

As was very wisely pointed out by other members here, it's possible he's both.
 
meketrefe

meketrefe

.450/400 Nitro Ex
Messages
12,806
Reaction score
16,330
Location
Dexter, ME
Drinkthekoolaid said:
This is something I've pondered before, and I realized I will never have the honest answer. We'll never know the truth.
We'll never be given the full, complete, unredacted version of events to know.
It's very obfuscated at this point.
My initial reaction was he was a traitor. Over time I've shifted to thinking he might be more of a patriot.
I don't like him hurting US national interests, but clearly the government is doing things they shouldn't be and even against US citizens. People need to keep the government honest.
I think @spat made a great post on this topic.
As was very wisely pointed out by other members here, it's possible he's both.
Click to expand...

Wise observations. I think it is quite possible for a secret operative to be in the same position as any given average soldier who
is ordered to execute an unlawful order.
So it will not be the first time someone is in that predicament whether to follow or disobey a direct order and/or break chain
of command to prevent a crime or continued involvement after becoming aware of the crime.
It is a right, but should also be an obligation, to refuse unlawful orders and in certain cases, where that might be more
complicated to determine, to be trained in international laws and the most basic and fundamental human rights to make
that determination.

We know by now many countries are breaking the law that they have somehow legalized and justified.

A lot of legislation being done is actually in a direct collision with other laws but we let states somehow legalize these.

I read Snowdens dossier and there are still a lot of unknown but IMO some of the things at least I don't find them to be wrong and there
are things that needed to be known but the people. I think the guy seemed to have some pretty basic ethical standards that were eating
at him.

We could argue all day if nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was necessary even in a full out attrition war. Smaller targets could have
been possibly taken and still achieve peace. We will never know.
 
Last edited:
GOPerfect

GOPerfect

.950 JDJ
U.S. Military
Messages
32,140
Reaction score
73,925
Location
No longer Secret, thanks DR. Evil
BDinPutnam said:
Traitor.

If he were really a patriot he would have had ample opportunities to blow the whistle without having to run to China and then later become an intelligence asset for Russia.

The same is true of Manning vis a vis his indiscriminate release of information on Wikileaks.

Both should swing.
Click to expand...


Just going to parrot this. Piece of shit for sure. Hang him, let him hang until the buzzards get tired of him.
 
Jcp123

Jcp123

.357 mag
Messages
702
Reaction score
909
Location
Rochester-ish
I’ve really never been able to say for sure. In a pragmatic sense, I am absolutely thrilled that he gave up the information that he did.

The Russia thing is what gives me pause. It’s possible that in a purely pragmatic sense, Russia was the least bad move on the chess board. We can be sure that at the very least, Putin is gloating as he pokes us in the eye by having him there. But it sure does give a bit of pause on his motives.

I’m going to cautiously say patriot, but I’m not married to that opinion.
 
BDinPutnam

BDinPutnam

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
14,491
Reaction score
20,858
Location
Someplace else
Jcp123 said:
I’ve really never been able to say for sure. In a pragmatic sense, I am absolutely thrilled that he gave up the information that he did.

The Russia thing is what gives me pause. It’s possible that in a purely pragmatic sense, Russia was the least bad move on the chess board. We can be sure that at the very least, Putin is gloating as he pokes us in the eye by having him there. But it sure does give a bit of pause on his motives.

I’m going to cautiously say patriot, but I’m not married to that opinion.
Click to expand...

To me the only surprising thing there (other then the technical details) were the actual names of the operations.

:rolleyes:
 
BDinPutnam

BDinPutnam

.475 A&M Magnum
Messages
14,491
Reaction score
20,858
Location
Someplace else
Jcp123 said:
I vaguely remember they weren’t the usual kinda slick acronyms gub’ment types usually favor?
Click to expand...

Put another way.

I was not surprised to learn they were doing the things they were (are) doing.

And I think my anti-tin foil bona fides are pretty well established.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top