So you are going to grab your ruck and try to survive off the land long term...

[Criticalt]

Native Americans lived off the land most of their known existence. It's possible, just not easy.

I think it's more important to have a group of people that you can trust to help each other survive.

There is a HUGE difference between natives who lived that way for thousands of years with very little illness and disease and our fat, spoiled, ill, soft selves. And their average lifespan was around 30-35 years.
Less than 1 percent of people today could stay well and get enough nutrition to survive past a couple months.
Our best bet these days is to prepare and do the best we can to survive afew years.
Hell, a simple flu virus would have decimated the native American population.....and today the flu is the least of our worries.

 

[SomeSoldier]

There is a HUGE difference between natives who lived that way for thousands of years with very little illness and disease and our fat, spoiled, ill, soft selves. And their average lifespan was around 30-35 years.
Less than 1 percent of people today could stay well and get enough nutrition to survive past a couple months.
Our best bet these days is to prepare and do the best we can to survive afew years.
Hell, a simple flu virus would have decimated the native American population.....and today the flu is the least of our worries.

I think we would survive, I think it would take as many generations to get back to that survival as it took to get here.

 

[Xae289]

That's a zero sum game. There's always someone badder than you.

Eh. Has worked with mixed results for all of human history so far. If you're bad enough and lucky enough to beat all the other bad dudes on the block, you get to last long enough to implode.

 

[Acer-m14]

@spat .. to go with that garden .. may need to make a root cellar to store them veggies in ..

 

[spat]

I have binged on solar for a few years now, but haven't had the money to jump in. The only inverters on the market I would use right now would be the sol-arks so two thumbs up on that one. AC coupling a pair of 12k's is my dream setup. Like you said the system easily is expandable. I would make sure the company that does the install put a couple power bars that you can sun new batteries to in the future. I really like these batteries Leading Clean Energy Storage Provider | Lithium Battery Storage . The small units are priced right you could add one every couple years. Considering they have their own BMS's you don't have worry about balancing the whole battery system. I know your in a different state but how much roughly is it going to run you?

So, the solar company is putting in the panels and inverters and they are going to connect to a battery array I will provide. I'm going with a basic lead acid battery setup, haven't decided which batteries I'll build it with yet, but it's going to be 12V batteries, either 4 400Ah or 8x 200Ah. I wanted max Ah for my budget for now.

If I bump it up in the future I might go to 2V Cells for max capacity. Barring some changes in the market, I don't see a strong reason to go Lithium. They have a lot of ways they're better than lead acid, but in a stationary application where size and weight are irrelevant, I think

I'm going to use the BMS features built into the Sol-Arks for now. I will have the flexibility to change that later if I want.

Going to do a few other unusual things. I have a flat roof with what they call a parapet wall out here. For those who aren't familiar basically it's a short wall around the perimeter of the roof.

In order to avoid roof penetrations (there would be *a lot* of then for the 15Kw array) I am going to run some steel beams above the roof itself. The beams will bear directly on that parapet wall, which itself bears on the ICF underneath.

So, no roof penetrations at all, the rails for the solar panels will bolt to the steel beams that are a foot or more above the roof.

The battery setup I am planning will allow me to double to 800Ah pretty easily. If I want more I would probably duplicate it again.

The cash price for the system would be about $37k (plus what I put in for the batteries and the steel beams). We had considered going that route, but you can get a loan at 1.99% for the system now, so that just seemed like a better option.

But there are some compilations with the way they finance these, so it's not *really* 1.99%.

That's the nominal rate, but then there is a hefty charge the finance company passes to the installer (who passes it on to you in the form of the price *without* the cash discount).

All this shenanigans is to maximize what you can claim for your solar tax rebate (currently 26% of the cost of the system, dropping to 22% next year). You can claim the installation cost in there, but not finance charges that don't hit until later.

 

[spat]

@spat .. to go with that garden .. may need to make a root cellar to store them veggies in ..

Been thinking about it. But they don't get very cool out here even if you dig them deep.

Will probably build one eventually anyway.

The climate out here will allow a much longer growing season if we irrigate so that will help though.

 

[MilesTeg]

So, the solar company is putting in the panels and inverters and they are going to connect to a battery array I will provide. I'm going with a basic lead acid battery setup, haven't decided which batteries I'll build it with yet, but it's going to be 12V batteries, either 4 400Ah or 8x 200Ah. I wanted max Ah for my budget for now.

If I bump it up in the future I might go to 2V Cells for max capacity. Barring some changes in the market, I don't see a strong reason to go Lithium. They have a lot of ways they're better than lead acid, but in a stationary application where size and weight are irrelevant, I think

I'm going to use the BMS features built into the Sol-Arks for now. I will have the flexibility to change that later if I want.

Going to do a few other unusual things. I have a flat roof with what they call a parapet wall out here. For those who aren't familiar basically it's a short wall around the perimeter of the roof.

In order to avoid roof penetrations (there would be *a lot* of then for the 15Kw array) I am going to run some steel beams above the roof itself. The beams will bear directly on that parapet wall, which itself bears on the ICF underneath.

So, no roof penetrations at all, the rails for the solar panels will bolt to the steel beams that are a foot or more above the roof.

The battery setup I am planning will allow me to double to 800Ah pretty easily. If I want more I would probably duplicate it again.

The cash price for the system would be about $37k (plus what I put in for the batteries and the steel beams). We had considered going that route, but you can get a loan at 1.99% for the system now, so that just seemed like a better option.

But there are some compilations with the way they finance these, so it's not *really* 1.99%.

That's the nominal rate, but then there is a hefty charge the finance company passes to the installer (who passes it on to you in the form of the price *without* the cash discount).

All this shenanigans is to maximize what you can claim for your solar tax rebate (currently 26% of the cost of the system, dropping to 22% next year). You can claim the installation cost in there, but not finance charges that don't hit until later.

I would highly recommend looking to lithium. The price has plummeted in past few years and is really on par with lead acid. Beyond the price the big reasons for me would be the maintenance and out gassing. Those can be solved but should be factored into the price difference. But for me the biggest advantage is the low discharge available with lithium along with its efficiency. So if you have a 400ah battery lead acid you can only discharge 200ah before risking damage. But with lithium you can get as much 350ah out of the same size battery. This ties into another issue with lead acid if you do routinely discharge the battery low even with proper maintenance you can ruin a bank very fast.

If the one I linked above is too pricey try these, they are more like the traditional battery systems. LiFePO4 Batteries Archives

 

[SonOfSun]

For solar I'd 100% go LiFePO4 in prismatic form. They are in most all ways superior to lead acid batteries (weight, energy density, lifespan). You can use a lot more of their capacity as well as they don't suffer as much on high DoD. Less maintenance. They even win out in long term cost over lead acid due to their lifespan.

Quality prismatic cells can typically get about 3000 or more cycles on them for their life cycle. If this is for prepping (assuming so based on sub forum selection) it should be obvious that if things aren't being resupplied easily then a power source with that type of endurance is very valuable.

 

[libertysnake]

 

[spat]

View attachment 128997

The guys with weapons will find the benevolent skilled communities, and then just "tax" them for what they need.

If you live in one of those communities, just pray that the guys you're paying "taxes" to are the baddest MFers in the valley.

 

[libertysnake]

The guys with weapons will find the benevolent skilled communities, and then just "tax" them for what they need.

If you live in one of those communities, just pray that the guys you're paying "taxes" to are the baddest MFers in the valley.

At a certain point, if the taxes become uncollectable because they fight back or know how to fight, you're still fucked if you have no skillset. It's still riding on a bet the other people won't kill you back.

 

[spat]

For solar I'd 100% go LiFePO4 in prismatic form. They are in most all ways superior to lead acid batteries (weight, energy density, lifespan). You can use a lot more of their capacity as well as they don't suffer as much on high DoD. Less maintenance. They even win out in long term cost over lead acid due to their lifespan.

Quality prismatic cells can typically get about 3000 or more cycles on them for their life cycle. If this is for prepping (assuming so based on sub forum selection) it should be obvious that if things aren't being resupplied easily then a power source with that type of endurance is very valuable.

The usage model I am aiming for right now is not full on SHTF.

it is a week or two power outage.

Under normal use, we will use the grid at night and sell back during the day to offset, effectively using them as out battery bank. I will limit the DoD on these to 20% or less until there is an outage. Their lifespan should be plenty under those circumstances. They may not see a deep discharge ever, but most likely only a few times. These guys are rated for a few hundred cycles at very deep discharge, and several thousand at what I will typically be drawing from them.

I expect them to survive for many years.

If you know of a lithium based system that can deliver this much performance for anywhere near this price, I'm all ears.

430AH 48VDC 20,640 Wh (8)

UNBOUND Battery Bank Crown 430AH 48VDC 20,640 watt hrs (8)

unboundsolar.com

I would like to upgrade to a better setup eventually. But I think this gets me the best bang for the buck right now.


For a true TEOTWAWKI situation, I would want something rebuildable. i.e. you disassemble the battery, melt down and recast the plates, etc...

Obviously nobody sells that. But it might be a fun project to see what I can make some time.

 

[spat]

At a certain point, if the taxes become uncollectable because they fight back or know how to fight, you're still fucked if you have no skillset. It's still riding on a bet the other people won't kill you back.

Fighting is one of the most valuable skillsets.

The Taliban didn't take over Afghanistan because of their farming prowess.

 

[MilesTeg]

The usage model I am aiming for right now is not full on SHTF.

it is a week or two power outage.

Under normal use, we will use the grid at night and sell back during the day to offset, effectively using them as out battery bank. I will limit the DoD on these to 20% or less until there is an outage. Their lifespan should be plenty under those circumstances. They may not see a deep discharge ever, but most likely only a few times. These guys are rated for a few hundred cycles at very deep discharge, and several thousand at what I will typically be drawing from them.

I expect them to survive for many years.

If you know of a lithium based system that can deliver this much performance for anywhere near this price, I'm all ears.

430AH 48VDC 20,640 Wh (8)

UNBOUND Battery Bank Crown 430AH 48VDC 20,640 watt hrs (8)

unboundsolar.com

I would like to upgrade to a better setup eventually. But I think this gets me the best bang for the buck right now.


For a true TEOTWAWKI situation, I would want something rebuildable. i.e. you disassemble the battery, melt down and recast the plates, etc...

Obviously nobody sells that. But it might be a fun project to see what I can make some time.

I agree that is good price tag, you wont find lithium for that. But it also comes with routine maintenance and venting that cost money and time. Maybe it's because I don't see to have time for anything anymore but I would be worried about forgetting to top the batteries off. The do sell watering kits so you don't have to worry about that though. The one big disadvantage of lithium is you cant EMP harden them. Think fortress batteries have a solution worked out but it will be a few years before its available.

For the melting of the battery for SHTF other uses, I hate to tell you doesn't really work. You would be luck to be able recover enough lead to cast up enough 9mm to fill a magazine. Pretty crazy I know. Most of the recoverable lead is from the lugs.

Did you see that they are coming out with a 15k Sol-ark? I still think (2) 12k is a better setup.

 

[Robin]

View attachment 128997

Um, yes.
Huh, sounds like I might be in demand.
Robin

 

[SonOfSun]

The usage model I am aiming for right now is not full on SHTF.

it is a week or two power outage.

Under normal use, we will use the grid at night and sell back during the day to offset, effectively using them as out battery bank. I will limit the DoD on these to 20% or less until there is an outage. Their lifespan should be plenty under those circumstances. They may not see a deep discharge ever, but most likely only a few times. These guys are rated for a few hundred cycles at very deep discharge, and several thousand at what I will typically be drawing from them.

I expect them to survive for many years.

If you know of a lithium based system that can deliver this much performance for anywhere near this price, I'm all ears.

430AH 48VDC 20,640 Wh (8)

UNBOUND Battery Bank Crown 430AH 48VDC 20,640 watt hrs (8)

unboundsolar.com

I would like to upgrade to a better setup eventually. But I think this gets me the best bang for the buck right now.


For a true TEOTWAWKI situation, I would want something rebuildable. i.e. you disassemble the battery, melt down and recast the plates, etc...

Obviously nobody sells that. But it might be a fun project to see what I can make some time.

A few links:

Grade A Prismatics: REPT 3.2V 280Ah LiFePO4 Solar Battery Cell

Good Video:






16 batteries is 51.2V nominal. Keep in mind good LiFEPO4 is 10%-90% range so you get a usable 80% DoD or 224Amps where as your system is flooded so your really don't want to go down below 50% DoD on that 430Amp system, which is 215 amps. Ie. for proper use you get more "usable" energy. Also the lithium cells cost about $1300 less in raw batteries though you will need to buy a good BMS, and I'd also have the BMS control a relay for discharge to prevent the power from going back out through the BMS, that will eat up some of the savings but I'd bet you'd still save $900-1000 after buying a good BMS.


FYI, I did a 4 cell 12V prismatic system at our family cabin. Only did lighting and one duplex outlet with a Cotek 300 watt sine wave power inverter. I'd like to upsize it in the future, but that's a future project.

 

[spat]

A few links:

Grade A Prismatics: REPT 3.2V 280Ah LiFePO4 Solar Battery Cell

Good Video:



View attachment 129030


16 batteries is 51.2V nominal. Keep in mind good LiFEPO4 is 10%-90% range so you get a usable 80% DoD or 224Amps where as your system is flooded so your really don't want to go down below 50% DoD on that 430Amp system, which is 215 amps. Ie. for proper use you get more "usable" energy. Also the lithium cells cost about $1300 less in raw batteries though you will need to buy a good BMS, and I'd also have the BMS control a relay for discharge to prevent the power from going back out through the BMS, that will eat up some of the savings but I'd bet you'd still save $900-1000 after buying a good BMS.


FYI, I did a 4 cell 12V prismatic system at our family cabin. Only did lighting and one duplex outlet with a Cotek 300 watt sine wave power inverter. I'd like to upsize it in the future, but that's a future project.

I'll have to look into that.

The Sol-Ark inverters I am using have a BMS built in that can be programmed for LiFePo

 

[spat]

I agree that is good price tag, you wont find lithium for that. But it also comes with routine maintenance and venting that cost money and time. Maybe it's because I don't see to have time for anything anymore but I would be worried about forgetting to top the batteries off. The do sell watering kits so you don't have to worry about that though. The one big disadvantage of lithium is you cant EMP harden them. Think fortress batteries have a solution worked out but it will be a few years before its available.

For the melting of the battery for SHTF other uses, I hate to tell you doesn't really work. You would be luck to be able recover enough lead to cast up enough 9mm to fill a magazine. Pretty crazy I know. Most of the recoverable lead is from the lugs.

Did you see that they are coming out with a 15k Sol-ark? I still think (2) 12k is a better setup.

Well, I wasn't talking about rebuilding an existing battery. I was talking about a home brew battery built from scratch to be rebuildable.

The lead isn't actually the hard part. It's the lead oxide. You're inevitably going to lose some every rebuild, but if you know how much and plan for that you might be able to make a battery you can rebuild every 5 years for decades.

 

[Acer-m14]

battery bank for your land line telephone

 

[spat]

battery bank for your land line telephone

My employer has a cage at a colocation facility in Miami. (for those of you who don't know, that's a giant datacenter where many different telecom companies will rent rack space to install gear so that they can interconnect their networks)

A few years ago, when a hurricane was bearing down on the city they were sending customers emails about their preparations.

They assured us that they had 250k gallons of diesel on hand. Enough to run the backup generators for 3 days. And that they had arrangements to get more delivered if power wasn't restored in time.

Kinda gives you an idea how much power these things take. Do you know how large a generator has to be to burn 3500 gallons an hour ? That's not even at max capacity, that's to handle the actual load it would need to supply.

One router the size of a dorm fridge can draw enough power to trip the main breaker at your house....

 

[Robin]

I'll survive.
Robin

 

[meketrefe]

Watch and learn!....

 

[Vapor]

My longterm SHTF/TEOTWAWKI plans involve predation of other humans so.........

 

[GOPerfect]

View attachment 128997

I have all of this in my groups. Oh, and guns

 

[BerettaGuy]

While the Chinese Communist Party is preparing its citizens for war. We in the US are discussing how not to say things that may be offensive to the sensitive sensibilities of overly sensitive, sensitive people. Time to review the Red Dawn movies. But that too could have scenes that may be offensive to the sensitive sensibilities of overly sensitive, sensitive viewers. Thankfully those types of people will be the first to give up the ghost in a survival situation. Even if war came, CNN would not show it, and if people were asked to sacrifice anything they would melt down.

 

[SonOfSun]

While the Chinese Communist Party is preparing its citizens for war. We in the US are discussing how not to say things that may be offensive to the sensitive sensibilities of overly sensitive, sensitive people. Time to review the Red Dawn movies. But that too could have scenes that may be offensive to the sensitive sensibilities of overly sensitive, sensitive viewers. Thankfully those types of people will be the first to give up the ghost in a survival situation. Even if war came, CNN would not show it, and if people were asked to sacrifice anything they would melt down.

People are so weak they need "Trigger warnings" and legitimately think demanding words will work. Makes me want to fucking puke in my soup. The world can be offensive, deal with it and people won't give one crap if you say ,"I said stop".

These types of people will get flattened:

Bunch of fucking pussies.

 

[nys6640]

Native Americans lived off the land most of their known existence. It's possible, just not easy.

I think it's more important to have a group of people that you can trust to help each other survive.

Agreed. I'm in Blue Yorkistan too. I do have an exit plan for when I retire or hopefully sooner, but the grouping is 100% spot on. As is planning and preparedness.
I believe we're in for a rough ride ahead because it doesn't look like anyone in politics is working for America anymore.

 

[BerettaGuy]

Agreed. I'm in Blue Yorkistan too. I do have an exit plan for when I retire or hopefully sooner, but the grouping is 100% spot on. As is planning and preparedness.
I believe we're in for a rough ride ahead because it doesn't look like anyone in politics is working for America anymore.

Your are right. They are working for themselves like Biden. One world Communism like the DNC or the banks. Whether it be the plandemic, climate change. or control of crypto. All involve the elimination of borders and sovereignty over one-world governance. Yes, I said Plan demic. Fauci is a Clinton disciple and he and the CCP are smack dab in the middle of it all and they all hated Trump. They had to do everything they could do to get mail-in ballots. The CCP wanted to bring down our economy and establish themselves but they screwed up and believed their own BS. Throw in the Climate change high priests demanding vaccines for every person on earth whose number one plank is the reduction of "mother earth's" plague of Humans and you have the perfect reason to play the song. Thangs that make you go Hmmmmm.