Tell Me Why This Isn't Legal

[Marine Cpl]

Obviously, when you ask a question for opinions, then proceed to attempt to contradict everything everyone else has said, you clearly don't give a shit about opinions in regards to the question you asked. All you are doing and continue to do is create and atmosphere where you try and argue why you are right and all others are wrong.
Nobody gives a rats ass what you think is legal or not. Your continued rhetoric just reinforces the fact that you are clearly just around to incite arguments.
More than one person has replied in the same fashion to your origional question, yet you continue to repeat your same counter as if you are the one making the laws the law.
You don't have a good argument for anything and just talk in circles.
You have no balls to call out Bulletguy by his name but yet to support your own personal crusade you can say in this thread the ATF ruling says a sig brace is good but in another threads aboit a product he is selling, you say ATF rulings don't apply in NY. You can't have it both ways based on your personal opinion o meet your agenda.
And that's what this is. Your personal opinion. Do what you want. No one here cares. As does no one care about what you think is legal either. You think because you can read English your version of what you comprehend is always correct. Well it's obvious that several others here in this thread disagree with you as do I'm sure many, many others that don't chime in.
No take this for what it's worth. That's my opinion. And as far as yours goes.....that's fine too. But don't post things stating how you are right and others are wrong when it's your interpretation of things versus someone elses.

This is a gun forum. We have discussions. I say something and then you say something. If you say something that I feel to be incorrect, I tell you why and point to a law or another example. If you say something in response to me being incorrect, I welcome it and expect you to back up your opinion with a law or other example. Perhaps I'll see something I want seeing and learn from it. That's how it works.

I don't expect you to take my opinion as command and I don't expect you to give me an opinion as a command. It's a discussion. There is no need for getting butt hurt over anything.

Many people here are really flawed individuals that take challenges to their opinion personal like children.

What is it that you want? You want for me to take someone's opinion and stop right there and close the thread or vice versa? Holy shit man. Get a grip. I welcome differing opinions. You learn from them and see things from different points of view. That's the purpose of a forum.

Would you rather me just post in the joke of the day thread? Where are your contributions to gun related topics? At least I try to come up with gun related topics to make people think.

 

[garyv350]

Gee. I expected you to tell us all again how it isn't a shroud. Who's butthurt?

 

[Marine Cpl]

As far as the ATF goes, it's laws are absolute until a state makes a more restrictive law. That's how it works. You should really understand how law works before you say I'm having it both ways in regards to the ATF.

 

[garyv350]

Correct. FFL's sell a lot of stuff that isn't legal. There is one on this site who does as well.

One has to read the law and decide for oneself rather than take an FFL's word. It's funny that you guys go tooth and nail fighting fixed magazines contrary to the actual wording of the law since it still has the ability to accept a detachable magazine yet here people are saying that it is a barrel shroud, a forward grip, ECT. Perhaps it's due to that. I don't know. I'd like to think that people aren't like that due to past disagreements.

The fact of the matter is that it isn't a barrel shroud and if one was to buy a barrel shroud for a Glock, the barrel would have to extend past the slide to attach the shroud to the naked portion of the barrel like so. This is an actual barrel shroud for a Glock barrel.

Up for sale is 16" threaded carbine impulse barrel for Glock 19 with shroud. Just add a stock and convert your Glock 19 to a legal carbine (SBR stamp not needed). Can be used with RONI Glock carbine kit or any Glock stocks. Got it brand new 2 months ago for $450, less than 100 rounds shot.

Prefect example....whats the first thing you say above? Does that sound like opinion or fact according to you?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Gee. I expected you to tell us all again how it isn't a shroud. Who's butthurt?

The truth is the truth. I've humbly admitted more than once on this forum that I was wrong or that I can now see someone's point of view.

Why is it hard for people here to do that?

 

[garyv350]

You obviously don't get it. You said something Bulletguy is selling isn't legat, but according to the ATF description it is....but you say it isn't legal here. But he says it is. You talk in circles. And don't substantiate what you have to say with anything but your version of how a law is written and it's interpretation.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Prefect example....whats the first thing you say above? Does that sound like opinion or fact according to you?

That's fact. Read the definition of semi automatic and tell me where the energy comes from that extracts and chambers the next round. And don't read the definition from the dictionary like he did. Use Penal Law 265.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You obviously don't get it. You said something Bulletguy is selling isn't legat, but according to the ATF description it is....but you say it isn't legal here. But he says it is. You talk in circles. And don't substantiate what you have to say with anything but your version of how a law is written and it's interpretation.

It isn't even legal even by the ATF. They use the same definition. Read it. There's no circles there. This is the classic case of someone making an opinion without even knowing the actual law.

Now back to the ATF. Silencers are legal. Not in NY due to a further law passed. If NY has no law then the ATF law applies. That's how it works.

 

[garyv350]

Something interrupts the chambering of the next round. Seems clear to me. But I don't care what you think and you don't have to care what I think. Same as the differing opinions of a fixed mag legality. Seems fine to me. All my msr's are fixed mag. I get your opinion on the wording where after it's partially disabled it still has the ability....but that's just what it is. Your opinion. Just like everything here. Your opinion. Doesn't make it right or wrong. Thats a fact. But you word things and approach these topics as is you already have all the answers and everyone else has to prove you wrong. That's not a discussion worth having.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Something interrupts the chambering of the next round. Seems clear to me. But I don't care what you think and you don't have to care what I think. Same as the differing opinions of a fixed mag legality. Seems fine to me. All my msr's are fixed mag. I get your opinion on the wording where after it's partially disabled it still has the ability....but that's just what it is. Your opinion. Just like everything here. Your opinion. Doesn't make it right or wrong. Thats a fact. But you word things and approach these topics as is you already have all the answers and everyone else has to prove you wrong. That's not a discussion worth having.

Interrupting doesn't negate where the energy came from. Your finger can't use it's energy to chamber that round.

But that's another thread. You do what you want in regards to that. Tell Bullet Guy I said hello.

 

[garyv350]

See....that's another good example. Your theory has a hole in it. The energy created clearly could chamber the next round, but a mechanical device prevents that. You state nothing that contradicts that. But you don't like discussion when your theory isn't popular, do you? Just like you don't respond to other posts in this very thread that clearly put down your opinion. Your actually easy to figure out.

 

[nortatoga]

 

[Marine Cpl]

See....that's another good example. Your theory has a hole in it. The energy created clearly could chamber the next round, but a mechanical device prevents that. You state nothing that contradicts that. But you don't like discussion when your theory isn't popular, do you? Just like you don't respond to other posts in this very thread that clearly put down your opinion. Your actually easy to figure out.

That's because this isn't the mag catch thread but I'll indulge you. Question. Where does it say in the law (Penal Law 265) that the energy from the cartridge to chamber the round can be interrupted?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge extract the fired cartridge?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge chamber the next round?

Your finger isn't doing it. If the chamber is empty and the bolt is forward, you can press that button all day long and it isn't going to chamber a round. You need the energy from your arm to manually pull the bolt back and put it's energy into the buffer spring to chamber a round or you need the energy from the previous cartridge to pull the bolt back into the spring to chamber the next round.

Read the thread on Ar15.com. That's where I learned that from. It's a good thing people were discussing it over there without getting butt hurt that their opinions were being challenged. It was a long thread of back and forth unlike the short ones where opinions don't get challenged that you guys seem to favor.

 

[Marine Cpl]

View attachment 19326

No problem with that unless it isn't a valid topic.

 

[spat]

That's what it all boils down to until there is an arrest, no plea bargain, and a full trial resulting in case law which rarely happens with all 3. So you are correct in saying acceptance and comfort is about all you do in regards to legalities. Just be mindful that acceptance doesn't necessarily mean legality. Look at open carry in the Penal Law for example.

So let me ask you this since you seem focused on the non shooting hand and calling this a grip. If you use a proper 2 handed grip on your regular pistol (let's call it a Glock for arguments sake) with both thumbs forward and your thumb is resting on the cutout for it, is the front of the frame now considered a grip?

Is a handguard on a rifle now considering a forward grip since it's meant for your hand to go there?

Here is the law in regards to assault rifles and the 2nd grip feature.

(iv) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand;

A hand guard or rest is not the same as a hand grip or else all long guns would be illegal.

The fact that this thread exists means the law itself is unconstitutionally vague, and therefore void.

Now, you are perfectly legal to walk down ave D in rochester at midnight with $100 bills hanging out of your pocket, but it's not a good idea.

For the same reason (that you will be illegally accosted), some of these things aren't a good idea to carry around in NY.

 

[garyv350]

That's because this isn't the mag catch thread but I'll indulge you. Question. Where does it say in the law (Penal Law 265) that the energy from the cartridge to chamber the round can be interrupted?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge extract the fired cartridge?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge chamber the next round?

Your finger isn't doing it. If the chamber is empty and the bolt is forward, you can press that button all day long and it isn't going to chamber a round. You need the energy from your arm to manually pull the bolt back and put it's energy into the buffer spring to chamber a round or you need the energy from the previous cartridge to pull the bolt back into the spring to chamber the next round.

Read the thread on Ar15.com. That's where I learned that from. It's a good thing people were discussing it over there without getting butt hurt that their opinions were being challenged and I learned from it because it was discussed.

21. “Semiautomatic” means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

Key word above is "and"....the spent cartridge doesn't do both things no matter how you try and spin it. So, by that definition, it doesn't fit that specific criteria. It's interrupted. Now that doesn't mean it can't be rewritten to include that. But as it stands, the definition as read doesn't fit with a bolt interrupted between pulls of the trigger. The buffer spring is actually what is chambering the next round. Now, find something on the internet that proves me wrong. I too can read and understand English.

 

[NY Chamorro]

Correct. FFL's sell a lot of stuff that isn't legal. There is one on this site who does as well.

One has to read the law and decide for oneself rather than take an FFL's word. It's funny that you guys go tooth and nail fighting fixed magazines contrary to the actual wording of the law since it still has the ability to accept a detachable magazine yet here people are saying that it is a barrel shroud, a forward grip, ECT. Perhaps it's due to that. I don't know. I'd like to think that people aren't like that due to past disagreements.

The fact of the matter is that it isn't a barrel shroud and if one was to buy a barrel shroud for a Glock, the barrel would have to extend past the slide to attach the shroud to the naked portion of the barrel like so. This is an actual barrel shroud for a Glock barrel.

Up for sale is 16" threaded carbine impulse barrel for Glock 19 with shroud. Just add a stock and convert your Glock 19 to a legal carbine (SBR stamp not needed). Can be used with RONI Glock carbine kit or any Glock stocks. Got it brand new 2 months ago for $450, less than 100 rounds shot.

The law doesn't specify "Barrel Shroud" just "Shroud"

 

[Marine Cpl]

The law doesn't specify "Barrel Shroud" just "Shroud"

And what is a shroud? Is a chassis a shroud? How about a slide?

 

[spat]

That's because this isn't the mag catch thread but I'll indulge you. Question. Where does it say in the law (Penal Law 265) that the energy from the cartridge to chamber the round can be interrupted?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge extract the fired cartridge?

As per the written definition, did the energy from the cartridge chamber the next round?

Your finger isn't doing it. If the chamber is empty and the bolt is forward, you can press that button all day long and it isn't going to chamber a round. You need the energy from your arm to manually pull the bolt back and put it's energy into the buffer spring to chamber a round or you need the energy from the previous cartridge to pull the bolt back into the spring to chamber the next round.

Read the thread on Ar15.com. That's where I learned that from. It's a good thing people were discussing it over there without getting butt hurt that their opinions were being challenged. It was a long thread of back and forth unlike the short ones where opinions don't get challenged that you guys seem to favor.

In a technical sense, that analysis is correct.

Technical correctness has seldom had much relation to N.Y. gun law.

In the real world you can get away with a lot more on a rifle with wood vs polymer furniture, even though the law * says * nothing about that

 

[Marine Cpl]

In a technical sense, that analysis is correct.

Technical correctness has seldom had much relation to N.Y. gun law.

In the real world you can get away with a lot more on a rifle with wood vs polymer furniture, even though the law * says * nothing about that

That's a problem. I agree with that.

 

[spat]

21. “Semiautomatic” means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

Key word above is "and"....the spent cartridge doesn't do both things no matter how you try and spin it. So, by that definition, it doesn't fit that specific criteria. It's interrupted. Now that doesn't mean it can't be rewritten to include that. But as it stands, the definition as read doesn't fit with a bolt interrupted between pulls of the trigger. The buffer spring is actually what is chambering the next round. Now, find something on the internet that proves me wrong. I too can read and understand English.

Where did the energy *stored* in the buffer spring come from ?

 

[garyv350]

In a technical sense, that analysis is correct.

Technical correctness has seldom had much relation to N.Y. gun law.

In the real world you can get away with a lot more on a rifle with wood vs polymer furniture, even though the law * says * nothing about that

In a technical sense it's not correct. The buffer spring is clearly chambering the next round. How the buffer spring gets the energy to compress comes from the prior round. But that energy isn't finishing the job. The spring is after the energy is released by a press of the bolt release.

 

[NY Chamorro]

And what is a shroud? Is a chassis a shroud? How about a slide?

you have a point there, because a slide would be a shroud...Now all pistols, minus the Ruger Mark's are illegal....lol...DELET THIS THREAD BEFORE THEY FIND OUT!!!!

 

[spat]

you have a point there, because a slide would be a shroud...Now all pistols, minus the Ruger MK's are illegal....lol...DELET THIS THREAD BEFORE THEY FIND OUT!!!!

Can't hold the slide without screwing up the semiautomaticness of the gun, that's the only reason a slide isn't a shroud.

 

[spat]

In a technical sense it's not correct. The buffer spring is clearly chambering the next round. How the buffer spring gets the energy to compress comes from the prior round. But that energy isn't finishing the job. The spring is after the energy is released by a press of the bolt release.

Every semi auto stores the energy of a round in a spring at firing, and that is what chambers the next round.


The only difference is how long it's stored.

 

[NY Chamorro]

Can't hold the slide without screwing up the semiautomaticness of the gun, that's the only reason a slide isn't a shroud.

Whew!!!!

 

[NY Chamorro]

Can't hold the slide without screwing up the semiautomaticness of the gun, that's the only reason a slide isn't a shroud.

I was just about to sink a boat...lol

 

[Marine Cpl]

Can't hold the slide without screwing up the semiautomaticness of the gun, that's the only reason a slide isn't a shroud.

It may not chamber another round but it'll still fire initially and after you set it down, it's still semi automatic. That's the only thing that matters.

What about the frame? That too partially encircles the barrel and allowed you to hold it without being burned.

Is a glove on an extended pistol barrel a shroud too?

Nope. A shroud is a shroud. A flashlight isn't a grip. A rail isn't a grip. A rail isn't a bayonet lug. A Patrick Henry trigger guard or that monstrosity Bullet Guy created isn't a grip. A ported barrel isn't a muzzle brake. A Sig Arm Brace isn't a stock. A longer barrel isn't a silencer. The list goes on.

This chassis is no different.

 

[garyv350]

Every semi auto stores the energy of a round in a spring at firing, and that is what chambers the next round.


The only difference is how long it's stored.

Precisely. The energy is stored. With a bolt interrupter the next round is not chambered withoit the push of a button. When the trigger is pulled, a round goes off, it's extracted, I pull the trigger again and click. Nothing until I release the bolt. Not semi auto as far as the written law. Doesn't satisfy both parts as written.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Precisely. The energy is stored. With a bolt interrupter the next round is not chambered withoit the push of a button. When the trigger is pulled, a round goes off, it's extracted, I pull the trigger again and click. Nothing until I release the bolt. Not semi auto as far as the written law. Doesn't satisfy both parts as written.

Where does it say that a portion of that energy can be interrupted? And what energy brings the bolt home? The energy from your finger or the energy in the spring like any semi auto? Or both? Does it say that the only energy required to chamber the next round must come from the cartridge solely or just a portion of it?