Things are heating up in the Donbass

[spat]

I have that one wrong. I was thinking of the Founding Act. But there is no mention of "no expansion". Sorry.

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

www.nato.int

The closest they have is a promise not to deploy nuclear weapons in any new countries.

That implies that new member states are perfectly acceptable.

Although it's almost a silly concern. When missiles from the continental US can hit them in 30 mins, how much difference is it if they were launched from Germany vs Ukraine.

We had missiles in the 80s that were 6 minutes away from Moscow. If we put hypersonics in Ukraine that might drop to 5 mins. Either way, everyone dies.

 

[holdover]

NATO hasn't gobbled up anything.

A lot of former communist block nations have petitioned NATO for membership, and been accepted.

Since NATO membership is completely voluntary, and the only penalty for violating NATO's requirements is that you get kicked out of NATO, I fail to see them as some carnivorous beast.

In contrast to Russia, who forces people to join them against their will by force of arms.

This is like the difference between joining the US military to get your college paid for, and being conscripted into the Russian Army or sent to prison.

Not arguing about the way in which it is done. Just that it was done. setting up elections , buying off officials, pressuring through trade, might be a nicer way to do it. but the fact is, many soviet block countries are now NATO countries.

How Do you think Russia sees this ? Your only looking at this one way , You need to see the chessboard from the eyes of your enemy.

You may think, Fuck Russia who cares? But its important because you need to anticipate their next move ahead of time. what their options are, and most likely moves. Understand your enemy , dont dismiss him.

This is a proxy war between NATO and Russia. Nothing less. Russia see it for what it really is. the US media sells it as The Ukrainian victims fighting against the tyrannical giant. Yeah, on its face, But there far deeper motivations going on under the surface.

 

[holdover]

We had missiles in the 80s that were 6 minutes away from Moscow. If we put hypersonics in Ukraine that might drop to 5 mins. Either way, everyone dies.

No. the distances were farther and the missiles were slower.

 

[livingston]

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Could be nothing... Maybe it's something...

I'm down south right now. Yesterday on I-77 in Virginia I passed a convoy of military tractor trailer flatbeds. I've seen lots of random occasional humvees and other trucks and troops that appear to be going on some sort of training or perhaps maybe guard units driving to or from a weekend training post but this seemed different. I've also never personally seen a convoy of heavy duty flat beds. Not sure what they were doing or where they were going. It was something out of the ordinary enough where I noticed.

 

[MothMan]

Likely a cold winter in some parts of the EU this winter.

US can’t replace Russian coal supplies to Europe – industry

US miners are unable to replace Russian coal in Europe, a commodity exporter says as the EU mulls a ban on Russian supplies

www.rt.com

Coal - Price - Chart - Historical Data - News

Coal decreased 2.45 USD/MT or 1.67% since the beginning of 2024, according to trading on a contract for difference (CFD) that tracks the benchmark market for this commodity. Coal - values, historical data, forecasts and news - updated on November of 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

 

[livingston]

Likely a cold winter in some parts of the EU this winter.

US can’t replace Russian coal supplies to Europe – industry

US miners are unable to replace Russian coal in Europe, a commodity exporter says as the EU mulls a ban on Russian supplies

www.rt.com

Coal - Price - Chart - Historical Data - News

Coal decreased 2.45 USD/MT or 1.67% since the beginning of 2024, according to trading on a contract for difference (CFD) that tracks the benchmark market for this commodity. Coal - values, historical data, forecasts and news - updated on November of 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

According to Thrasher, most of the US coal output has already been sold under long-term contracts and there are few spare tons to deliver to Europe. With coal being the dirtiest fossil fuel, there has been little investment in new capacity, he explained, adding that tight labor markets and supply-chain bottlenecks caused by the coronavirus pandemic would also make it difficult to deliver extra tons for export.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I do not believe it is acceptable these days to use the word retard. Many people have children of special needs and do not like that word, but, I digress.

As for the Train station, I do not have all of the facts of that particular bombing. Some of the "fact" seem to be a bit weird. I will look into this a bit deeper.

I am not on team Ukraine. That does not mean I am on team Russia either.

You speak of American Values, I love most of our values and all of the Rights and freedoms that we have here. Unlike many people here and throughout the Country, I have traveled the World quite a bit. I have been deep into other Nations, not just tourist areas; I have seen people living with no freedoms and no Rights. Do you think that the Ukrainian people have these values and these freedoms that we have?

Once again, those that do not share your thoughts and your opinions, you toss them aside like trash. Ever been to the Ukraine? Ever watch real documentary's about the Nation and its people? Or, are you only forming an opinion on what is being tossed at you during this current situation?

There are some here that are very Pro Russia, I respect their opinions even if I do not share all of them. I have supported this once great nation of ours in all they/we have done; even when I disagreed with the policies. I will always support the US. I have strong ties to other Countries and I have bias in regards to them.

You speak of indoctrination, I do not see that at all. I see grown ass men sharing their opinions, their insight and their points of views. Shame you are not open enough to see where others are coming from.

Valiant effort but a waste of time IMHO. I put very little credence into what someone thinks from an individual that had his head so far up Fauci's ass that he could box his tonsils. Also, an individual that is so afraid of his wife that he didn't vote for the more pro American candidate during the 2020 election. BTW, I find it beyond rich that he says we hate American values given my previous sentence. Beyond rich indeed.

 

[1341]

Could be nothing... Maybe it's something...

I'm down south right now. Yesterday on I-77 in Virginia I passed a convoy of military tractor trailer flatbeds. I've seen lots of random occasional humvees and other trucks and troops that appear to be going on some sort of training or perhaps maybe guard units driving to or from a weekend training post but this seemed different. I've also never personally seen a convoy of heavy duty flat beds. Not sure what they were doing or where they were going. It was something out of the ordinary enough where I noticed.

A quick look at Virginia National Guard units show a heavy transport company located in Gate City. Maybe out for some weekend drills. Not sure of the TOE of a transport company these days for size of what you saw.

 

[tirwin1]

Russia is clearly the aggressor here but I have a hard time sympathizing with the corrupt government in Ukraine. I feel sorry for the people. All I know is that in a war between two corrupt nations not a single american soldier should be involved. Yet the longer this goes on I think it is inevitable that we will be dragged in.

As for the impact of the war on the rest of the world - we ain't seen nothing yet. Riots in Peru already over food and inflation. Wait until the end of the year when the typical wheat exports of the worlds top 2 exporting nations don't happen and famine becomes real.

I find it difficult to believe the unrest that will occur in the rest of the world will not impact this nation as well.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

The closest they have is a promise not to deploy nuclear weapons in any new countries.

That implies that new member states are perfectly acceptable.

Although it's almost a silly concern. When missiles from the continental US can hit them in 30 mins, how much difference is it if they were launched from Germany vs Ukraine.

We had missiles in the 80s that were 6 minutes away from Moscow. If we put hypersonics in Ukraine that might drop to 5 mins. Either way, everyone dies.

Upon reading more about it, it looks as though former Warsaw Pact states becoming new NATO members wasn't as much a problem for Gorbachev and Yeltsin. It was the forward deploying of nuclear weapons that was mostly the concern. That said Gorbachev was of the opinion that the expansion of NATO was a mistake (which I agree with).

NATO itself is a relic. It should have been moth balled after the reason it was founded (The Soviet Union) ceased to exist. Without a counter part like the Warsaw Pact to balance it out, you end up where we are now, one sided with no real purpose. So they have to invent a purpose or reason for exisiting. If you look at how our government has made Russia out to be the boogieman, and potentially set Putin up to do what he did, you can see how keeping NATO a thing was really not a good thing. With everything we are doing, it doesn't look like we are in line with the Founding Act, it looks like we are creating an enemy.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Camera Man Walking Ahead of Mine Sweepers

For more exclusive interviews, insight, and analysis like this, SUBSCRIBE to The Charlie Kirk Show TODAY: https://apple.co/2VCxGsh And for EVEN MORE—tune in to The Charlie Kirk Show LIVE on Salem Radi

rumble.com

CNN finally does something useful. Although corporate probably already has his absentee ballot in a safe place.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

A quick look at Virginia National Guard units show a heavy transport company located in Gate City. Maybe out for some weekend drills. Not sure of the TOE of a transport company these days for size of what you saw.

Makes perfect sense. Still not sure if it was normal movement or something extraordinary. It was enough where it caught my attention to think about it

 

[1341]

Upon reading more about it, it looks as though former Warsaw Pact states becoming new NATO members wasn't as much a problem for Gorbachev and Yeltsin. It was the forward deploying of nuclear weapons that was mostly the concern. That said Gorbachev was of the opinion that the expansion of NATO was a mistake (which I agree with).

NATO itself is a relic. It should have been moth balled after the reason it was founded (The Soviet Union) ceased to exist. Without a counter part like the Warsaw Pact to balance it out, you end up where we are now, one sided with no real purpose. So they have to invent a purpose or reason for exisiting. If you look at how our government has made Russia out to be the boogieman, and potentially set Putin up to do what he did, you can see how keeping NATO a thing was really not a good thing. With everything we are doing, it doesn't look like we are in line with the Founding Act, it looks like we are creating an enemy.

It wasn't as if all those former Warsaw Pact countries were forced into NATO. They joined because they wanted to. I wonder if it has something to do with there deep mistrust of Russian goals. They realized back then that while the soviet union imploded, it would be only a matter of time before Russia settled all its internal problems and would start to look elsewhere. Can you imagine, for example, what would have happened if the Baltic states weren't members of NATO and Putin decided he needed more Baltic seaports for his navy and exports of oil products.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

It wasn't as if all those former Warsaw Pact countries were forced into NATO. They joined because they wanted to. I wonder if it has something to do with there deep mistrust of Russian goals. They realized back then that while the soviet union imploded, it would be only a matter of time before Russia settled all its internal problems and would start to look elsewhere. Can you imagine, for example, what would have happened if the Baltic states weren't members of NATO and Putin decided he needed more Baltic seaports for his navy and exports of oil products.

I never said they were forced to join. If Putin wanted more sea ports in the baltic, we'd be in the same position with or without NATO. If NATO had been moth balled, and that happened, the alliance could have been reinstated just like any other agreement or piece of equipment. What would or should we care about Putin wanting former Soviet satilite states anyway? If NATO had stayed how it was before baltic states joined, nothing would have changed if Putin expanded there. Putin would still stop at a NATO border.

 

[1341]

I never said they were forced to join. If Putin wanted more sea ports in the baltic, we'd be in the same position with or without NATO. If NATO had been moth balled, and that happened, the alliance could have been reinstated just like any other agreement or piece of equipment. What would or should we care about Putin wanting former Soviet satilite states anyway? If NATO had stayed how it was before baltic states joined, nothing would have changed if Putin expanded there. Putin would still stop at a NATO border.

I think we ran that scenario before, like just before WW2. A guy named Neville Chamberlain come to mind.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

I think we ran that scenario before, like just before WW2. A guy named Neville Chamberlain come to mind.

Nope. Our treatment of Germany after ww1 is what lead to ww2. Just like we are doing to Russia.

 

[DoOver]

 

[1341]

Nope. Our treatment of Germany after ww1 is what lead to ww2. Just like we are doing to Russia.

Our treatment, give me an example. You start a war, lose it, suffer consequences and it's our fault. Did that happen after ww2? No it didn't I wonder why that happened. Maybe because we didn't allow a little dictator spew that propaganda like after the first one.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Our treatment, give me an example. You start a war, lose it, suffer consequences and it's our fault. Did that happen after ww2? No it didn't I wonder why that happened. Maybe because we didn't allow a little dictator spew that propaganda like after the first one.

You've heared of the Treaty of Versailles? We hamstrung Germany and punished it economically through forced reparations for WW1 and took away it's military, amung other things. That is simplified, but the treaty led to much resentment in Germany. This arguably led to the rise of Hitler and Nationalism in Germany. Hitler didn't start WW2 because he couldn't get into art school.

You make a good point with appeasement not being a good thing and only showing weakness. What I'm saying is that something has to be the motivator for people like Hitler and Putin to push back. That policies towards other countries are sometimes short sighted and breed the kind of fear and resentment that leads us to a place where we end up faced with the choice between appeasement and war.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

I would also say, and I think general Patton would somewhat agree, that the formation of NATO, was a form of appeasement or perhaps a side step to dealing with the Soviet Union. Patton wanted to solve the Soviet problem right then and there. So allowing it to exist and drop an "Iron Curtain" accross Europe could be construed as a form of appeasement.

 

[pjzwtl]

NATO is the reason why the Chamberlain appeasement argument is not applicable in the current scenario. Vlad may be a bit of a despot but he isn’t a fool.

 

[holdover]

You've heared of the Treaty of Versailles? We hamstrung Germany and punished it economically through forced reparations for WW1 and took away it's military, amung other things. That is simplified, but the treaty led to much resentment in Germany. This arguably led to the rise of Hitler and Nationalism in Germany. Hitler didn't start WW2 because he couldn't get into art school.

You make a good point with appeasement not being a good thing and only showing weakness. What I'm saying is that something has to be the motivator for people like Hitler and Putin to push back. That policies towards other countries are sometimes short sighted and breed the kind of fear and resentment that leads us to a place where we end up faced with the choice between appeasement and war.

And the French annexed the entire Rurher vally. which was the industrial breadbasket of Germany, without that they could not afford to pay the outrageous reparations, which lead to the collapse of the German mark, a depression for Germany and the little funny guy that swore he would fix it.

 

[spat]

Not arguing about the way in which it is done. Just that it was done. setting up elections , buying off officials, pressuring through trade, might be a nicer way to do it. but the fact is, many soviet block countries are now NATO countries.

How Do you think Russia sees this ? Your only looking at this one way , You need to see the chessboard from the eyes of your enemy.

You may think, Fuck Russia who cares? But its important because you need to anticipate their next move ahead of time. what their options are, and most likely moves. Understand your enemy , dont dismiss him.

This is a proxy war between NATO and Russia. Nothing less. Russia see it for what it really is. the US media sells it as The Ukrainian victims fighting against the tyrannical giant. Yeah, on its face, But there far deeper motivations going on under the surface.

I don't disagree that it's a conflict between NATO amd Russia. But, if Russia saw it for what it was they would not have fallen for the trap the west set for them in Ukraine.

And make no mistake, this *was* a trap, and Russia fell for it hook, line, sinker, and copy of Angling times. As a result Russia is nearly destroyed as a world power.

Putin royally fucked up when he went into Ukraine. His best move by far would have been to allow Ukraine into NATO, and play along economically.

 

[spat]

I would also say, and I think general Patton would somewhat agree, that the formation of NATO, was a form of appeasement or perhaps a side step to dealing with the Soviet Union. Patton wanted to solve the Soviet problem right then and there. So allowing it to exist and drop an "Iron Curtain" accross Europe could be construed as a form of appeasement.

Appeasement is sacrificing countries to your enemy in the hope that it satisfies them for a while and they stop expanding.

Allowing the Soviets to keep territory they had conquered during WWII wouldn't have been appeasement.

Letting them assimilate Korea or Vietnam would have been.

Letting Putin have Chechnya and Georgia and others was appeasement and led directly to where we are today. If NATO or the UN has smacked him down hard early Ukraine wouldn't be a disaster today.

If we'd sat back and allowed him to take Ukraine unopposed, then the next one would just be worse.

In many ways the way this is going down is very well for us. Russia is getting it's ass kicked by a much weaker neighbor and all we need to do is ship in boatloads of weapons. There is a lot of value in not getting our hands dirty.

I do think we maybe should have done a little more though. Not boots on the ground, that seems unnecessary, and if you can avoid US casualties they should be avoided. But, Russia has gotten a little closer to victory than I am comfortable with, so maybe something a bit more than just pallets of weapons too.

 

[spat]

Nope. Our treatment of Germany after ww1 is what lead to ww2. Just like we are doing to Russia.

Since the fall of the Soviet union the west has treated Russia very well economically. They have grown, and until this latest escapade they were becoming a major world economic power.

This is not even remotely comparable to what happened to Germany after the treaty of Versailles.

The EU dependance on Russian petroleum alone is proof of that.

 

[spat]

Upon reading more about it, it looks as though former Warsaw Pact states becoming new NATO members wasn't as much a problem for Gorbachev and Yeltsin. It was the forward deploying of nuclear weapons that was mostly the concern. That said Gorbachev was of the opinion that the expansion of NATO was a mistake (which I agree with).

NATO itself is a relic. It should have been moth balled after the reason it was founded (The Soviet Union) ceased to exist. Without a counter part like the Warsaw Pact to balance it out, you end up where we are now, one sided with no real purpose. So they have to invent a purpose or reason for exisiting. If you look at how our government has made Russia out to be the boogieman, and potentially set Putin up to do what he did, you can see how keeping NATO a thing was really not a good thing. With everything we are doing, it doesn't look like we are in line with the Founding Act, it looks like we are creating an enemy.

NATO doesn't need a boogy man. Since the fall of the Soviet union it really just became a cool kids club with no real purpose. But that's fine.

The only expansion NATO has done is completely voluntary, by countries who saw all the cool kids sitting at the cool kids table and wanted in.

Militarily NATO is the United States, and the people who let the US build bases on their territory. The rest of their militaries are irrelevant.

Would Putin have been any happier if Ukraine remained neutral with NATO, but leased 100 nuclear missiles from the US the way the Brits do ?

Maybe in exchange for a lease on 100 square miles to build a military base on ?

Or maybe we don't build a base, but just conduct a lot of joint exercises with the Ukrainian military ?

This is not about NATO threatening Russia. There was never a military threat to Russia.

This is about Russia wanting to be a world power, then getting suckered into proving how much they are not.

 

[holdover]

I don't disagree that it's a conflict between NATO amd Russia. But, if Russia saw it for what it was they would not have fallen for the trap the west set for them in Ukraine.

And make no mistake, this *was* a trap, and Russia fell for it hook, line, sinker, and copy of Angling times. As a result Russia is nearly destroyed as a world power.

Yes it was a trap. But in retrospect, had the war gone according to Russia's plan and Ukraine cheered Russians troops entering Ukraine as liberators , He would have stuck a big stick in the eye of NATO. He would have achieved his safety buffer , He would have established his military prowess to the world. and Russia would have come out smelling like a rose. Thats why the Russians thought they could do it. Obviously it didn't go according to plan.

I dont think Russia is though just yet, They may go ""All in"" in the next offensive in the Donbass which is brewing right now, Not saying they are going to win, But there's a large battle yet to come which will decide everything. One of the two is going to break.

What I think is that Russia will sit back for weeks or months defending what she has then launch a major offensive with the objective being ,not citys, but the destruction of the UKI armed forces . Successful or not I cant tell you. But something like this is going to happen

 

[holdover]

This is not about NATO threatening Russia. There was never a military threat to Russia.

Thats their perception of it . And NATO is basically trying to destroy Russia by Proxy, and though sanctions and international banking, and arming and supporting Ukraine .So you cant really say they are not a threat when this is exactly what they are doing.

 

[MothMan]

How dare they have a separate perception of the narrative.