spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, how long should Russia get to dictate who Ukraine can be friends with ?
Forever ?
It's been 30 years.
Things are heating up in the Donbass
- Thread starter holdover
- Start date
Forever ?
It's been 30 years.
Let's not kid ourselves that Russia is some altruistic holier than thou country.
Like every other country they are looking out for number 1.
And by no means am I using the US as an example of a country with integrity that stands by it's word. We've abominated just about every single agreement we've ever signed as soon as it was convenient or self serving to do so.
All countries do it, some are just worse at it that others.
There are very few countries out there who put their word, honor and integrity above national interests.
For as long as there is NATO at the least.
One country believes in its hegemony, the other doesn't.
Will this thread rival the COVID thread in length?
Will "droplets" and N100 masks be made available?
Will the borderline antipathy and ceaselessly circular arguments continue?
Who's right?
Who's wrong?
The fUSA, other than conducting metric shit-tons of corruption and illicit bio-weapons research in Ukie-Land, had absolutely no skin in the game...at the start.
Now "we" ("What you mean "we" white-man?" said Tonto) are involved...well, at least the retards running fUSA.Gov are "involved'.
But, if it goes "hot" young Americans (worthless POS or not) will die.
No pols will die...they'll just keep accumulating power and $$$$$.
I'm betting on the re-institution of "the draft" - my grandson is very close to that age.
He WILL NOT go and die for this corrupt shit-heel banana republic.
WWII came extremely close to getting my Father...Vietnam tried hard for 4 months, but didn't get me.
If you really, really, really think the fUSA should be involved...
Man up, my niggas!!!
Get your sorry ass on a motherfucking airplane and go fight for the Ukies, or the Russkies, or Wagner.
Put some skin in the game, other than the tax $$$$ you've had stolen from you.
Will "droplets" and N100 masks be made available?
Will the borderline antipathy and ceaselessly circular arguments continue?
Who's right?
Who's wrong?
The fUSA, other than conducting metric shit-tons of corruption and illicit bio-weapons research in Ukie-Land, had absolutely no skin in the game...at the start.
Now "we" ("What you mean "we" white-man?" said Tonto) are involved...well, at least the retards running fUSA.Gov are "involved'.
But, if it goes "hot" young Americans (worthless POS or not) will die.
No pols will die...they'll just keep accumulating power and $$$$$.
I'm betting on the re-institution of "the draft" - my grandson is very close to that age.
He WILL NOT go and die for this corrupt shit-heel banana republic.
WWII came extremely close to getting my Father...Vietnam tried hard for 4 months, but didn't get me.
If you really, really, really think the fUSA should be involved...
Man up, my niggas!!!
Get your sorry ass on a motherfucking airplane and go fight for the Ukies, or the Russkies, or Wagner.
Put some skin in the game, other than the tax $$$$ you've had stolen from you.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Why I ""gleefully support that murderous bastard Putin.""
The Naval base at Sevastopol is of vital strategic national security interest to the Russians . It is the HQ of the entire black sea fleet . The southern flank of Russia. Loss of the base would be catastrophic to Russian defense plans. Further more, that base would eventually be turned over to NATO . the Russians were compelled to act or lose the entire black sea , and their southern flank .
Judging by your ignorant answers, it aint much. But if you want to enlighten the class with your facts , by all means , but you wont. Because you dont have any .
That""globularity"" is historical record. You would know that if you were ""Informed"" or payed attention .
All I can say is judging from your answers is that your talking out of your ass.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Any threat to your borders are justifiable .
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The only border that has been threatened is the Ukranian one.
You do not get to invade your neighbors and then claim that you were afraid they were going to invade you first LOL.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Friends? 0. Russia never said a word when Ukraine joined the EU. Russia warned Ukraine and the west for 30 years they would not tolerate NATO in Ukraine, it was a red line that means war. They applied for NATO status anyway.
NATO could also have avoided the war by saying no.
Ukraine has the rights of any other sovereign country to join NATO . And now they have to live with the consequences of their actions .
Cri-me-a river.
You think the west and John Mc Cain was arming and training them for no reason?
Merkel confirms that NATO wanted war from the start but needed time to prepare militarily.
My God man, You cant be that stupid.
SEC. 2. SENSE OF CONGRESS ON BLACK SEA SECURITY.
(a) Sense Of Congress.—It is the sense of Congress that—
(1) it is in the interest of the United States to support efforts to prevent the spread of further armed conflict in Europe by recognizing the Black Sea region as an arena of Russian aggression;
(2) littoral states of the Black Sea are critical in countering aggression by the Government of the Russian Federation and contributing to the collective security of NATO;
(3) the repeated, illegal, unprovoked, and violent attempts of the Russian Federation to expand its territory and control access to the Mediterranean Sea through the Black Sea constitutes a threat to the national security of the United States and NATO;
(4) the United States condemns attempts by the Russian Federation to change or alter boundaries in the Black Sea region by force or any means contrary to international law and to impose a sphere of influence across the region;
(5) the United States and its allies should robustly counter Russia’s illegitimate territorial claims on the Crimean Peninsula, along Ukraine's territorial waters in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, in the Black Sea's international waters, and in the territories it is illegally occupying in Ukraine;
(6) the United States should continue to work within NATO and with NATO Allies to develop a long-term strategy to enhance security, establish a permanent, sustainable presence along NATO's eastern flank, and bolster the democratic resilience of its allies and partners in the region;
(7) the United States should work within NATO and with NATO Allies to develop a regular, rotational maritime presence in the Black Sea;
(8) the United States should also work with the European Union on coordinating a strategy to support democratic initiatives and economic prosperity in the region, which includes two European Union members and four European Union aspirant nations;
(9) Turkey's behavior towards some regional allies and democratic states has been counterproductive and has contributed to increased tensions in the region, and Turkey should avoid any actions to further escalate regional tensions;
(10) the United States should work to foster dialogue among countries within the Black Sea region to improve communication and intelligence sharing and increase cyber defense capabilities;
(11) countries with historic and economic ties to Russia are looking to the United States and Europe to provide a positive economic presence in the broader region as a counterbalance to the Russian Federation’s malign influence in the region;
(12) it is in the interest of the United States to support and bolster the economic ties between the United States and Black Sea states;
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Not true at all. so I cant shoot if someone is pointing a gun at me? Holy shit man this is quintessential self defense .
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Are you seriously claiming that Ukraine was preparing to invade Russia ?
You do not get to shoot your neighbor because he is hunting in his own back yard and your paranoia leads you to think he *might* be *thinking* of hunting in yours.
It doesn't matter how long or how many times you have told him to stop, because *you have no right to tell him to stop to begin with*
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Some of you guys really surprise me. You cant see the chess board from the other side .
Lets say the Soviet union won the cold war and all of Europe was under its flag , Now after promising not one inch west ward the Soviet union wants to admit Canada and Mexico into the Bloc. You would not interpret a threat knowing that the entire Northern and southern border will soon be filled with armys from the east?
If Hawaii voted to join the USSR , do you think that Losing Pearl Harbor would not be of vital strategic interest? Just hand over Pearl Harbor to the Russians and give up Your Naval base ? No strategic value worth fighting for?
During ther Cuban missile crisis , the US was ready willing and able to start a nuclear war if the Soviets didnt pull missles out of cuba.
Lets say the Soviet union won the cold war and all of Europe was under its flag , Now after promising not one inch west ward the Soviet union wants to admit Canada and Mexico into the Bloc. You would not interpret a threat knowing that the entire Northern and southern border will soon be filled with armys from the east?
If Hawaii voted to join the USSR , do you think that Losing Pearl Harbor would not be of vital strategic interest? Just hand over Pearl Harbor to the Russians and give up Your Naval base ? No strategic value worth fighting for?
During ther Cuban missile crisis , the US was ready willing and able to start a nuclear war if the Soviets didnt pull missles out of cuba.
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holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Ukraine was fighting in the Donbass and preparing to invade Crimea to take back the jewel at Sevastopol.
The Russians annexed it , so technically , yes in a limited way . And they had the army to do it . The Russian army and economy was thought to be much weaker than it turned out to be .
spat
.700 Nitro Express
So, the Russians invaded part of the Ukraine, and the Ukraine preparing to defend it is justification for the Russians invading.
Wow.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Paranoia? Thats a good one . without question if the Russians did not act the entire Black sea fleet would be gone and occupied by NATO Navel vessels 600 yards off the coast of Russia.
Of course you have every right to say that this move would threaten the national security of Russia and would put us on a collision course for war . You are informing him . If he chooses to listen or not is his business, Its Ukraine's choice. they chose war . The Russians had no option .
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
DUDE! Its under the Russian federation now. Its not contested , because Ukraine cant even get there to contest it
both sides are claiming it as their own. Ukraine can fight for it if it wants . I understand your point, but Thats the way Russians are going to play it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Russia signed an agreement to respect the *1994* ukranian borders.
Then then proceeded to invade several parts of that.
*then* Ukraine says "well, if they're going to try absorbing us peacemeal, we better get with NATO for some help" and Russia tries to use *that* as justification to take another bite ?
Why do you suppose that historically neutral countries like Sweden and Finland suddenly expressed an interest in NATO ? Were they afraid that Russia was going to claim a boy scout jamboree too close to the border was a staging ground for an invasion and attack *them* too ?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
I'd have a lot more respect for the Russians if they had just come out and said they were invading because they wanted the territory.
Inventing such a ridiculous justification just beclowns them.
Imagine if NATO decided to roll into Moscow by claiming that Poland was under threat. That's actually a *lot* more believable than the claim that Ukraine was a threat to Russia.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I'd have a lot more respect for the Russians if they had just come out and said they were invading because they wanted the territory.
You dont see the loss of the entire Baltic fleet a threat? It completely shuts them out of the Mediterranean too, then they have to contest with NATO Armys and missiles 90 miles from Moscow. An hour and a half drive. The fact that Washington sees the Black sea fleet as a threat , even though they have been there before our country was even founded . What audacity.
I dont know what else to say. Your not dealing with reality here.
You dont see the loss of the entire Baltic fleet a threat? It completely shuts them out of the Mediterranean too, then they have to contest with NATO Armys and missiles 90 miles from Moscow. An hour and a half drive. The fact that Washington sees the Black sea fleet as a threat , even though they have been there before our country was even founded . What audacity.
I dont know what else to say. Your not dealing with reality here.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Russia agreed to respect Ukraines borders on the contingency they dont join NATO. Thats in the agreement. I posted it somewhere.
It was Ukraine that violated the agreement .
1994 Budapest Memorandum was also signed by the United States. In paragraphs 1 & 3 it guaranteed Ukraine its political independence. This memorandum went out the window when U.S. government staged a violent coup and overthrew democratically elected president of Ukraine, handpicking (midwifing) a new government. It was U.S. who tore it up.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
Russia invaded long before Ukraine started courting NATO.
Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954.
Russia invaded it in 2014.
When was the suggeation that Ukraine was courting NATO first aired ?
So, Russia smoked that agreement back in 2014. If *you* were running what was left of Ukraine, what would you do then ? Sit back and wait for your turn, or try to find some allies ?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Sure, whatever let's you sleep at night comrade.
The funny thing is with all the squealing by the West about Budapest memorandum, it was very hard to find the actual text. When I Googled it few years ago, what would come up are the summaries by Western institutions which focused only on territorial aspect.. Only after reading the actual text in pdf file, one finds that political independence and sovereignty are in the same sentence as territorial integrity.
It's a relatively short document and the fact that they chose to summarize it instead of publishing actual document is very telling.
FUCKING SHYSTERS.
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Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
O'le Mosey and Holdy are the only ones with the facts of the matter, everyone else has bought into lies and innuendo and propaganda. I know this to be true because they say it over and over again, ad nauseam.
The mile high club, well, saves on helicopter fuel.
Full list of Russians to fall out of windows since Putin invaded Ukraine
A series of mysterious deaths have involved prominent Russian figures since the Ukraine war began last February.
www.newsweek.com
They even have a name for it.
Sudden Russian Death Syndrome
It’s not a great time to be an oligarch who’s unenthusiastic about Putin’s war in Ukraine.
www.theatlantic.com
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
2002.
Ukraine last week announced it would seek membership in the NATO military alliance, marking a policy shift away from neutrality on the membership issue. The head of the defense and security council who made the announcement says neutrality no longer makes sense for Ukraine. But analysts say President Leonid Kuchma's recent international isolation and the new NATO-Russia Council were also factors in the decision.
Prague, 30 May 2002 (RFE/RL) -- Ukraine, wedged between Western Europe and Russia, has a long and tragic history as a battleground. Its vast plains have for centuries provided excellent ground for cavalry sweeping in from the West and East. In the last century, they showed themselves equally inviting for tanks.
Since Ukrainian independence in 1991, NATO and the West have made it clear they see Ukraine as a key element of new security structures in Europe.
Ukraine: A Look At Kyiv's Motives For Seeking NATO Membership
Ukraine last week announced it would seek membership in the NATO military alliance, marking a policy shift away from neutrality on the membership issue. The head of the defense and security council who made the announcement says neutrality no longer makes sense for Ukraine. But analysts say...
www.rferl.org
APRIL 3, 2008 BUCHAREST (Reuters) - NATO leaders promised Ukraine and Georgia on Thursday they would one day join the Western defense alliance after rebuffing U.S. demands to put the former Soviet republics on an immediate path to membership.
Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko called the NATO move historic. “This is our victory,” he told reporters. Georgian Foreign Minister David Bakradze also hailed “historic breakthrough” for his country.
But thousands of protesters massed in Ukrainian cities to denounce the prospect of NATO membership, highlighting deep divisions over whether Kiev should look east or west.
“We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO,” NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer told a news conference, reading from a communique agreed at a summit of the pact’s 26 leaders in Bucharest.
NATO promises Ukraine, Georgia entry one day
NATO leaders promised Ukraine and Georgia on Thursday they would one day join the Western defense alliance after rebuffing U.S. demands to put the former Soviet republics on an immediate path to membership.
www.reuters.com
- July 21, 2009
Russian officials have been increasingly angered by deepening Western alliances in what it terms its “zone of privileged interests,” and especially the proposed expansion of NATO to include Ukraine and Georgia, which were once part of the Soviet Union. Mr. Biden made it clear that the United States remained enthusiastic about the proposal.
This is not, nor ever was, a wonton land grab by a mad man. The threat to Russia was omnipresent , it materialized in 2014
