USA Today Demonizes AR-15 After Reporting Santa Fe Gunman Used Revolver, Shotgun

[ManrisFrack]

You sound like a talking head on MSNBC. This isn't an audition, is it? I'm gonna be pissed if some liberal jack-off parrots your arguments on Morning Joe or in a NYTimes editorial where they can't be rebutted.

Anyway, I agree that a shotgun would be a serious disadvantage (compared to a rifle) outdoors or anywhere the range became extended. However, the only multi-building school shooting that I can recall was Virginia Tech. Only difference there would have been concealability of a long arm while he walked campus.

I can see what you're saying about the mag dump scenario but I can't say more deaths would be a given. Shotgun is putting out more than twice the projectiles. Even with the slower practical fire rate, it probably goes dry and starts getting reloaded first. Certainly, if able victims remain after the first mag, the rifle/PCC pulls ahead. I think it unlikely (but not impossible) that a group is penned up enough to stick around just long enough for a mag change but not long enough to stuff the shotgun. Like I said before, for school shootings, factors other than the weapon(s) used are likely to have the biggest effect on the number of dead and consequently the airtime.

Just for the record, I personally wouldn't chose a shotgun over a carbine or shorter mag fed rifle for defense because the rifle will handle a larger range of variables. If I got a shotgun set up for HD though, it'd get the job done unless they had numbers, persistence and armor.

 

[Shadow2]

If you feel a shotgun is a spray and pray firearm your using it wrong.

The only relevant factor in all these shootings is the LARGE GROUP OF DEFENSELESS PEOPLE ... i don't care what gun is used ... its hard to miss a crowd of people who have no way to stop you from going after them.

Who said we have 10 rds? Benelli M4 realistic semi accurate range with buckshot = no more than 25 yards. I'd have a much higher higher probability of escaping that in a crowd than someone with a rifle, PCC, or a pistol if he's good enough with the pistol that can make each shot count. In a crowd, one can easily put 25 yards between yourself and the shooter who isn't going to be running.

Sure you can be hit but spraying and praying (which buckshot is at distance) is easier to survive than accurate fire. This is why our troop's survival rate is much higher compared to Iraqi and Afghan insurgents who spray fire in hopes that Allah guides their bullets.

And if you survive that first volley and vitals aren't struck, you can put even more distance between yourself and the shooter.

Fail.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you feel a shotgun is a spray and pray firearm your using it wrong.

The only relevant factor in all these shootings is the LARGE GROUP OF DEFENSELESS PEOPLE ... i don't care what gun is used ... its hard to miss a crowd of people who have no way to stop you from going after them.

At distance buckshot is spray and pray.

 

[Shadow2]

At distance buckshot is spray and pray.

In a school hallway, night club, class room, movie theater its flat out lethal ... and at those ranges far from being distant and very much accurate ...

 

[Marine Cpl]

In a school hallway, night club, class room, movie theater its flat out lethal ... and at those ranges far from being distant and very much accurate ...

Can you put all pellets where you want them at distance? 25 to 50 yards away down a hallway? No. That's not accuracy.

 

[GOPerfect]

Can you put all pellets where you want them at distance? 25 to 50 yards away down a hallway? No. That's not accuracy.

Not arguing, No gun is better or worse in this type of ugliness. Most school shooting victims are less then 10 feet, trapped in a classroom or a closet!

 

[Edwardteach72]

Going to read and try and catch up here in a second

But I'm taking it that most of you are saying that a 12g shotgun is a better option for home defense than an AR15

Or that a shotgun is better for any personal protection than an ar15 is

 

[FrankenCub]

Not saying one is going to be more devastating in a situation like this but have you watched any coyote hunting videos? DRT running yotes at 30+ yards with a 12g and buckshot.

 

[GOPerfect]

Going to read and try and catch up here in a second

But I'm taking it that most of you are saying that a 12g shotgun is a better option for home defense than an AR15

Or that a shotgun is better for any personal protection than an ar15 is

I know that is not what I am saying...

Each gun has its place. I have a 12 Gauge under my bed and an AR in my closet. Both are easy to get to and both will get the job done.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I can't really think of any situation that a shotgun would be more advantageous than just about any modern rifle, again especially in either pistol or sbr configuration, or shot even with a 16in barrel

 

[Edwardteach72]

I lied.

Birds. If you are planning to shoot birds. Either the meaty kind or clay kind. Oh or rabbits

 

[GOPerfect]

I can't really think of any situation that a shotgun would be more advantageous than just about any modern rifle, again especially in either pistol or sbr configuration, or shot even with a 16in barrel

Sorry to hear that. You should expand some of your knowledge.

 

[FrankenCub]

I can't really think of any situation that a shotgun would be more advantageous than just about any modern rifle, again especially in either pistol or sbr configuration, or shot even with a 16in barrel

The only disadvantage I see with a shotgun for home defense is the limited number of rounds it will hold and speed of reload. Otherwise it's number 4 buckshot and headshots all night. There will be no missing, unless you are totally unsuited for using a weapon. There will be no crackhead still advancing after a couple hits from a small caliber, #4 to the head and it's lights out. Anyone behind the first perp will probably be disheartened by the first round going off in their direction unless they are pretty hardened scumbags. In which case you tap another in the face.
I love MSRs! But there's something to be said about a nice thunder stick.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sorry to hear that. You should expand some of your knowledge.

Ok please school me then? When would a shotgun be more advantageous than rifle?

 

[96coal449]

When would a shotgun be more advantageous than rifle?

close quarters when every shot counts extremely. Like in your home with your family at stake. Also the sound of a pump getting racked is unnerving as well. Not that rifles and pistols are not as effective. For a less experienced shooter (especially under pressure) the shot gun wins hands down.

 

[96coal449]

Also one round has a potential of hitting 2 targets.

 

[GOPerfect]

1. Greater likelihood of a one shot stop.

No weapon guarantees a one shot stop. However, 00 buck will give you a one shot stop MORE OFTEN than a .223 or 7.62x39 round. Both will fail to stop with one shot. The shotgun will fail to do this less often.

This is important because at extreme short distance, even if your adversary is alive for 2 seconds after you shoot him, he can still shoot you. Unless your gun choice can put him down immediately, you also stand a high risk of dying.

2. Easier to hit a target on the move

In my home defense simulations, the first thing both the defender and the attacker did when contact was made was to MOVE. Your adversary will be moving. You will be moving. If you have more than one bad guy, you can bet the second bad guy will be scrambling after the first shot is fired. Shotguns are meant and designed to shoot moving things more effectively than carbines.

 

[96coal449]

They were adapted for trench warfare for good reason. When the dough boys cleared them it was the most effective. The Germans hated them and wanted them banned from warfare.

 

[Edwardteach72]

close quarters when every shot counts extremely. Like in your home with your family at stake. Also the sound of a pump getting racked is unnerving as well. Not that rifles and pistols are not as effective. For a less experienced shooter (especially under pressure) the shot gun wins hands down.

Hahahhahaha especially to the racking of a shotgun. Yup someone kicked in your door and you want to give them more time (remember you didnt know this was coming, they already have the upper hand) but ok sure let me guess, carry with an empty chamber because you can rack the slide of a handgun and that will scare someone off??????

As for the inexperienced shooter?

Garbage ass advice.

You mean to say someone who isnt experienced in aiming or recoil mitigation is going to do better with something that 1 still requires the same amount of aiming but has substantially more recoil. Never mind flinching or closing their eyes. No good follow up.

 

[96coal449]

No the racking is the second shot for the next victim.

Edit: Forgot to add .... the inexperienced under pressure is what I was getting at.

 

[GOPerfect]

I can't really think of any situation that a shotgun would be more advantageous than just about any modern rifle, again especially in either pistol or sbr configuration, or shot even with a 16in barrel

Ok please school me then? When would a shotgun be more advantageous than rifle?

I am here to school no one. I know guns, I know what they are good for. I know the best tool for the job. I have spent years training on nearly every type of firearm, what I did not directly train with, I studied. I researched. This is not arrogance, this is fact.

You stated that you could not think of a single situation in which a shot gun would give you an advantage; that shows that you have some learning to do. That is not to sound dickish, again, just a stated fact. Sorry.

 

[96coal449]

My shotgun is by my bedside also, and chambered. But if an intruder entered and i had to rack a round in .... the intruder might rethink a different house would be easier to rob. Just playing out different scenarios .....

 

[Edwardteach72]

They were adapted for trench warfare for good reason. When the dough boys cleared them it was the most effective. The Germans hated them and wanted them banned from warfare.

Just goes to show how you are using old school doctrine to try and convince yourself it's still relevant

 

[GOPerfect]

What is this Old School doctrine you keep talking about?

 

[96coal449]

Just goes to show how you are using old school doctrine to try and convince yourself it's still relevant

No I'm not. If I had multiples inbound at home I'd grab my M1A scout and hand the shotgun to the wife. An inexperienced shooter especially under pressure. Every tool has it's place to shine. Some hunt deer with them even though a rifle is probably more suited. One half dozen or the other.

 

[FrankenCub]

Much smaller target, way outside of home defense range. Buckshot is very effective and the shot doesn't spread as far as you think if the gun is choked right. Let me know what home invasion perp is going to keep advancing after one hit.
There's plenty more where this came from. If I had the right shotgun I wouldn't second guess it as a home defense weapon. I have a over/under but that's not useful, and have a 1100 but it's too long. So I use my Walther P99.

 

[Edwardteach72]

No I'm not. If I had multiples inbound at home I'd grab my M1A scout and hand the shotgun to the wife. An inexperienced shooter especially under pressure. Every tool has it's place to shine. Some hunt deer with them even though a rifle is probably more suited. One half dozen or the other.

This right there..

I never said shotguns dont work, but again you cant tell me a 500, 590, 870 or honestly even m4 gives you any advantages over a modern rifle

 

[96coal449]

This right there..

I never said shotguns dont work, but again you cant tell me a 500, 590, 870 or honestly even m4 gives you any advantages over a modern rifle

You took it out of text but that's okay ..... they all can get the job done. And that's my point. I'm saying I wouldn't dismiss a shotgun for home defense. Anything with more range I'd definitely grab a rifle or pistol. As long as they are not a single shot weapon.

 

[Edwardteach72]

You took it out of text but that's okay ..... they all can get the job done. And that's my point. I'm saying I wouldn't dismiss a shotgun for home defense. Anything with more range I'd definitely grab a rifle or pistol. As long as they are not a single shot weapon.

Ok so it sounds like we might be on the same page.

My whole argument was against people trying to say a shotgun is "better" idk how to word it with out sounding like no a psychopath or what not, than an AR-15 for mass shootings and what not .

My point was that yes shotguns work, and if that's what one has go for it, but it adds no advantages over an sbr or even a "pistol" ar15

 

[FrankenCub]

This right there..

I never said shotguns dont work, but again you cant tell me a 500, 590, 870 or honestly even m4 gives you any advantages over a modern rifle

You can't pick out an advantage from this chart?

#4 is roughly .224 dia, so at 5yds figure you're gonna have most of those 27 pellets hitting the target, that's a whole lot of lead on impact. Someone's going down on the first round. Either in the chest or the head. You get one guy behind the first and they both take a hit to the chest from multiple pellets. The pellets all get bigger from there. I personally like #4 for the pellet count. More advantageous at farther distances, 30-40yds. Sure, a MSR will still have the round count advantage, but you get some high on drugs, they've been shot over and over before they fall.