USA Today Demonizes AR-15 After Reporting Santa Fe Gunman Used Revolver, Shotgun

[96coal449]

for mass shootings and what not .

For that anything of SA .... why that dip shit used a shotgun and revolver? Maybe what was conveniently accessible?

To be honest I did not read the entire thread. I speed read through most of it. Sometimes when I see a members name in the latest post search as the last post I click on that post first because I like to hear what they have to say. You are one of them. I then read much of the thread as quickly as I can to "catch up" before making my post. A lot of posting in this thread and I should have went to bed a while ago ..... but i enjoy chatting with you fellas .....

 

[Marine Cpl]

Also one round has a potential of hitting 2 targets.

Like your loved one? You hear a sound in your daughters bedroom. You respond with your useless shotgun in that situation because you cannot take a shot because he's right next to her.

Meanwhile if you had a rifle with a red dot he's dead.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I am here to school no one. I know guns, I know what they are good for. I know the best tool for the job. I have spent years training on nearly every type of firearm, what I did not directly train with, I studied. I researched. This is not arrogance, this is fact.

You stated that you could not think of a single situation in which a shot gun would give you an advantage; that shows that you have some learning to do. That is not to sound dickish, again, just a stated fact. Sorry.

You won't because you have no answer. You do this a lot. You'll just say that you know because you studied a lot without explaining the why or what on an educational gun forum that we could all learn from.

This coming from a 5 shot .45 ACP XDS off duty carrier. No offense but if you studied ballistics and scenarios involving barrier penetration, you wouldn't carry that. And that's not taking into account multiple attackers who may also be behind cover. Capacity would be a big issue there too.

This right there is the old-school doctrine that Edward speaks of. It's a refusal or a resistance to conform or adapt to the ever-changing battlefield around you. Some suffer from this worse than others. Some can't let go of their 6 shot revolvers when the criminals now carry 17 shot autoloaders. Some can't see the use of a red dot for CQB because their 3x9 scope has worked for them in the past while hunting. Even the military has been resistant. It took the Marines a long time to put an optic on their rifles and a collapsible stock. Thankfully now they are evolving.

The shotgun had it's place back in the day when the common long gun against it was a bolt action low capacity rifle and a low capacity revolver . It was a force multiplier at the time. Times have changed and these antiquated weapons can no longer keep up with the modern ones that are deadly accurate, shorter, and have a higher firing rate.

 

[Marine Cpl]

close quarters when every shot counts extremely. Like in your home with your family at stake. Also the sound of a pump getting racked is unnerving as well. Not that rifles and pistols are not as effective. For a less experienced shooter (especially under pressure) the shot gun wins hands down.

Haha. The sound of a rack. That's a myth. Do you have your pistol unchambered too?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You took it out of text but that's okay ..... they all can get the job done. And that's my point. I'm saying I wouldn't dismiss a shotgun for home defense. Anything with more range I'd definitely grab a rifle or pistol. As long as they are not a single shot weapon.

That's like saying not to dismiss a black powdered revolver. Same concept. Both would kill but not ideal if different situations arise.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Haha. The sound of a rack. That's a myth. Do you have your pistol unchambered too?

Haha I said the same thing

You are leaving out trench guns

 

[Marine Cpl]

For a less experienced shooter (especially under pressure) the shot gun wins hands down.

No way. My wife cannot handle a shotgun. But she can manipulate and put 11 shots in an 8 inch circle at 50 yards with a 9mm AR with a Thordsen stock and reload quickly even with long nails.

I got rid of my shotgun because she used to fumble with the shells during a reload because her nails got in the way. She would also try to fire without racking after a shot already went off sometimes. The recoil also blew her away.

No way a shotgun is better for an amateur.

 

[GOPerfect]

You won't because you have no answer. You do this a lot. You'll just say that you know because you studied a lot without explaining the why or what on an educational gun forum that we could all learn from.

This coming from a 5 shot .45 ACP XDS off duty carrier. No offense but if you studied ballistics and scenarios involving barrier penetration, you wouldn't carry that. And that's not taking into account multiple attackers who may also be behind cover. Capacity would be a big issue there too.

This right there is the old-school doctrine that Edward speaks of. It's a refusal or a resistance to conform or adapt to the ever-changing battlefield around you. Some suffer from this worse than others. Some can't let go of their 6 shot revolvers when the criminals now carry 17 shot autoloaders. Some can't see the use of a red dot for CQB because their 3x9 scope has worked for them in the past while hunting. Even the military has been resistant. It took the Marines a long time to put an optic on their rifles and a collapsible stock. Thankfully now they are evolving.

The shotgun had it's place back in the day when the common long gun against it was a bolt action low capacity rifle and a low capacity revolver . It was a force multiplier at the time. Times have changed and these antiquated weapons can no longer keep up with the modern ones that are deadly accurate, shorter, and have a higher firing rate.

However will, I did give some feedback. I did in fact give out a bit of information. What is your problem? We are having a conversation, and as usual, you jump all in with insults and negative jabs.

There was some very good input from a few people in regards to the viability and positive need/use for a shotgun. Fine, you like shotguns as much as you like police, but every conversation does not need to be so hostile all of the time.

I guess your opinion is the only one that matters.

 

[Marine Cpl]

However will, I did give some feedback. I did in fact give out a bit of information. What is your problem? We are having a conversation, and as usual, you jump all in with insults and negative jabs.

There was some very good input from a few people in regards to the viability and positive need/use for a shotgun. Fine, you like shotguns as much as you like police, but every conversation does not need to be so hostile all of the time.

I guess your opinion is the only one that matters.

Don't take it that way. I'm not insulting you nor do I want to. Just stating things. I respect everyone here.

Edit. I missed this little jab that has nothing to do with the situation at hand. There's no need to bring the police into this. It's a tactic used to deflect truth. It comes up all the time as a way to get back at me when angry. I don't get angry and takes things personal. I just state more facts.

And my opinion isn't an opinion. It's fact that a low recoiling, high capacity, surgical accurate, low weight rifle that is easily reloaded is better suited for combat or else every member of a Swat team or CQB operator would be equipped with one.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sorry but I didnt see him insult anyone? Nor did he bring up police

 

[GOPerfect]

As usual, another conversation killed. I'll look for a different one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

As usual, another conversation killed. I'll look for a different one.

Why is it killed? You are free to explain why a low capacity, high recoiling weapon is better. But if you cannot it's easier to just go to another thread. I didn't take you for one with a thin skin. I've eaten crow before. We've all had. You and Darth made me eat it multiple times in regards to private property rights where I was dead wrong and admitted to such.

Ok then. If that's how you feel. It wasn't my intention to get you angry.

 

[GOPerfect]

Why is it killed? You are free to explain why a low capacity, high recoiling weapon is better. But if you cannot it's easier to just go to another thread. I didn't take you for one with a thin skin. I've eaten crow before. We've all had. You and Darth made me eat it multiple times in regards to private property rights where I was dead wrong and admitted to such.

Ok then. If that's how you feel. It wasn't my intention to get you angry.

I already gave some examples. But some here only want to hear and read what suits them.

I love all of my AR's. I own many of them, I own many different calibers as well as multiple configurations. They are my go to guns for many reasons, I also understand that other guns have their places as well. Some only want to use their fancy MSR's for all applications, okay, whatever floats your boats.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I already gave some examples. But some here only want to hear and read what suits them.

I love all of my AR's. I own many of them, I own many different calibers as well as multiple configurations. They are my go to guns for many reasons, I also understand that other guns have their places as well. Some only want to use their fancy MSR's for all applications, okay, whatever floats your boats.

But again what times would a 12g shotgun be advantageous over an AR-15m

 

[freddy]

Can you put all pellets where you want them at distance? 25 to 50 yards away down a hallway? No. That's not accuracy.

Yes this is easy. At 50 yards producing a chest size pattern from 00 buck - all day long. Flight-control shells, or equivalent. These have been in production for some time now.

Nine shells in a M4 Benelli. Same as the military. Relatively soft recoil from semi auto action.

Vastly more energy delivered to target than a .223.

 

[Criticalt]

Well, I dont own an AR.
But I do own an M4.
My Glock 20 is beside my bed
The M4 is beside the bed too
Either one will stop what I shoot at.

 

[freddy]

 

[freddy]

Like your loved one? You hear a sound in your daughters bedroom. You respond with your useless shotgun in that situation because you cannot take a shot because he's right next to her.

Meanwhile if you had a rifle with a red dot he's dead.

Good god, how absurd. I am begining to wonder if you have ever properly patterned a shotgun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Like already stated, shotguns do have a place. They are great for birds and other hunting. They are great for the use of non-lethal rounds. They are great for breaching doors. They are great for a point man entering an enclosed space where collateral damage isn't a concern as long as he has someone directly behind him backing him up when his gun goes down after being quickly emptied or ready to take a shot if an unforeseen circumstance happens like an innocent in the room.

But by himself or if other innocents are in the room or dwelling, it isn't ideal. That is exactly the case in most home defense scenarios. You can't control where the innocents of your house will be or how many assailants there will be. They aren't always going to be bunched together.

I think most people can't get past the actual damage at close range it does and for some reason can't get past that and think beyond that step. If they went beyond that step, they'll see the limitations of the platform.

It isn't about shiny AR's. A Mini 14, SKS, or a Keltec would still be better when those situations arise that you cannot use a shotgun. IE innocents close to the perp. The perp or multiple perps hightailing it to your backyard out of range but still firing at you. A gunfight that takes more than 8 shots. A hostage situation involving one of your family members. A perp wearing body armor. A perp in your garage using your vehicle as cover where a lighter gained pellet wouldn't make it through. Ect.

There are more reasons why a shotgun is more of a hindrance than just the one reason of it's lethality on naked flesh at close range. When things go bump in the night, you don't have time to access the situation on whether a specialty weapon should be used. That's like picking a Barret .50 with a 16 powered scope that you can't see out of indoors. The tool wouldn't fit the job.

 

[Criticalt]

I can only get 8 rounds in mine, 7 if I use 3in.
With #4 buckshot it makes a mess out of whatever im shooting.
Down a hallway, a mouse could not squeeze through.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Good god, how absurd. I am begining to wonder if you have ever properly patterned a shotgun.

I have. Federal flight controlled out of a Keltec KSG. Better than most loads but still not accurate enough to be surgical at distances beyond point blank if you have to be deadly accurate.

That flight control is trying to mitigate the limitations of a shotgun by trying to be close together almost like a solid round. It defeats the purpose of standard buckshot. If you want it to be tight, why not use a slug instead of 8 or 9 low grain balls that'll follow each other close together down the same wound track more or less give or take within a centimeter of each other at really close range? And if you use a slug, why not use a rifle that's even more accurate and easier to handle?

 

[freddy]

I can only get 8 rounds in mine, 7 if I use 3in.
With #4 buckshot it makes a mess out of whatever im shooting.
Down a hallway, a mouse could not squeeze through.

Are you ghost loading?

 

[Criticalt]

Are you ghost loading?

I have no idea.
I have an aftermarket 7 round tube plus one in the chamber.
Can I fit more?

 

[freddy]

I have. Federal flight controlled out of a Keltec KSG. Better than most loads but still not accurate enough to be surgical at distances beyond point blank if you have to be deadly accurate.

That flight control is trying to mitigate the limitations of a shotgun by trying to be close together almost like a solid round. It defeats the purpose of standard buckshot. If you want it to be tight, why not use a slug instead of 8 or 9 low grain balls that'll follow each other close together down the same wound track more or less give or take within a centimeter of each other at really close range? And if you use a slug, why not use a rifle that's even more accurate and easier to handle?

Again, it is the superior energy imparted. It is also the multiple wound channels. One shot stops are what we all want. Under 50 yards the shotgun has the best probability of acheiving this.

 

[freddy]

I have no idea.
I have an aftermarket 7 round tube plus one in the chamber.
Can I fit more?

Yes! You can load 9 rounds...

 

[Marine Cpl]

Again, it is the superior energy imparted. It is also the multiple wound channels. One shot stops are what we all want. Under 50 yards the shotgun has the best probability of acheiving this.

That superior energy doesn't trump it's shortcomings. That's like using a high powered scope indoors. It wouldn't work in all situations. I've laid out those situations in previous posts.

 

[Criticalt]

Yes! You can load 9 rounds...

I have not tried that, but I will now.

 

[freddy]

I have not tried that, but I will now.

Works a treat!

 

[freddy]

That superior energy doesn't trump it's shortcomings. That's like using a high powered scope indoors. It wouldn't work in all situations. I've laid out those situations in previous posts.

Wow.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Wow.

Yes. Wow. Answer this question honestly.

Suppose you are taking a nap in your bedroom or reading a book. For whatever reason (don't dwell on the reason) I thought you weren't home and I busted down your front door or your wife opened it and you hear her screaming. You come out with your Benelli M4 ghost loaded with your Federal flight controlled wads. I see this and grab your wife and draw my gun because I'm a cornered rat. You have the red dot on my head but she is really close to me. I know this so get even closer.

Will you take the shot with your buckshot and possibly kill both of us or will you lay down your shotgun?